Judges please...

...judge the poem, not the poet...so many poems I feel are going under the radar in favour of poets that are 'popular'..IMO.

The worst p&q l saw in 16 years

Judges please...

Despite reading through
the reams of poems, his votes
felt like a slapped face

:o

Wow! Seriously?
A thread like this started out this way is why no one wants to step up and judge. However flawed anyone thinks this system is, it's set up as it is. Referencing that it's all favoritism basically just said anyone who has been judging is incapable of deciphering between what you "deem" as a quality write.

Well said Brenda!

I'm seriously tired of this...

I half agree with Hellon.

But I don't think it's the judges. I think it's us members nominations.

Because the site is quiet only the usual handful of people are writing, doing their best to keep the site active. These same people are the only ones nominating as well ( and probably judging)

Therefore the same crowd will win the weekly.

If active member = A
Nominator = N
Judge = J
And Win = W

Then

A*(N/J)=W

Not rocket science. ;-)

Thanks, Darren
but, if my poem doesn't win, does that mean it was crap and I have no friends? Damn, I feel a dark phase coming on.

For one it is not a disgrace if one havea difference of opinion. But listen, slightest disagreement provokes so much discomfort: Fed up with what?? What dark place?? Wrong or right, Hellon only expressing what she feels. And non of us are infallible for caring out loud. I know I am not. I have been judging and I too made mistakes.
I guess like-mindedness is what totalitarian mentality is striving for.

Wow so many posts. Sorry I am using bad connection somewhere away from canada

Everyone is entitled to their differences of opinions...that's what makes this world go around. I wasn't discomfited by this. I was annoyed by the fact that it was inferred that anyone that judges isn't capable of actually being able to distinguish between a good poem and what another might deem not satisfactory. You yourself said as a judge you have made your "mistakes". Again, stating that anyone that's a judge is incapable of making an intelligent choice and that the judging as of late has been sub par as the poetry being nominated. I didn't realize we are all Rhodes Scholars and masters at our craft. This site allows each and everyone one of us to write to our hearts content. It allows us to give and receive feedback from our fellow poets. It also allows us to feel welcomed into a forum that most of us would never dream we could be a part of. Plus it gives all of us an equal chance of being nominated and possibly receiving front page or an HM. I think that is a pretty neat thing. It has nothing to do with a totalitarian mind set. I have judged in the past and it's not necessarily the best written poem that catches my eye. It's how it made me feel, nothing to do with formed vs free verse, perfectly spelled, punctuation, etc...someone is spilling their heart out, sharing their darkest secrets, that takes a lot of strength to do. I applaud that and celebrate another person for that. If that makes me a sub par judge then so be it.

Brenda, I agree with most of what is expressed here but if you do not mind I am going to critically analyze your statement to prove a few misunderstanding of what was stated. For as is in human nature, we base our statements on common sense, to dismiss anything that undermines our frames of the comfort zone.
I'll be back, from abroad tomorrow midnight and then after I get rid of my jetlag l shall write a few lines in respect of your respond.

Honestly, at this point, I think we're covering the same points over and over again.

If the same people are writing, there isn't much to choose besides that so either a member nominates or chooses not to nominate. If nothing stands out, but they feel pressured to "highlight" at least one poem, then their decision may be swayed based on what's currently written and posted during that week. Then, if there is a new member, is there pressure to vote for the right reasons (not because that poet is new, but because whatever verses they share catch a member's eye and is unique)?

But there won't be any major or noticeable changes when we have the usual poets at this moment in PnQ who are active, with a few new or returning members appearing occasionally. It's like a question of, do you vote for what you know or do you vote whenever there is a new member because secretly you're wanting them to take the spotlight? I think it's all about intentions here and I believe most judges do the best they can with taking the whole poem into account and not trying to put those on a pedestal or play any games (not saying that's what you hinted at, just saying a poem can be "deserving" to a judge no matter the poet, if it happens to be weeks in a row that's when I think, well is that all there is available to read or are these poems really speaking for themselves and "going for it")

Poetry is an art form and as such is open to interpretation and personal taste. Having been a judge myself several times - its hard work to write your own poems whilst reading as many poems as possible each week to allocate your nominations. Then at the end of each week read between thirty and forty nominated poems to pick the top three and write a review for each of them.

I think that anyone putting in all that time and effort would be doing because they love poetry and want to contribute to the community. Not waste their time voting for people rather than poems.

My experience has been that some weeks the poetry quality has been so good that its been incredibly difficult to make a choice and other weeks the quality has been much more varied. Sometimes a poem will really appeal to one judge but not to another because different things appeal to different people and a poem that seems awful to one person may sound brilliant to someone else. That's the reason there are five judges and not one..

When I judge I try to make it fair by reading each nominated poem and the ones I like I copy and paste the text and title (without the writers name) into a temporary document. Then I go back and keep reading each short listed poem in turn until I've whittled it down to the three that I like best. Choice is made for me on several factors from imagery, form, the message behind it and how a poem makes me feel and my taste is wide.

Whats the point in trying to rehash a subject that's been rehashed to death? Surely instead we should be thinking how great it is that we have access to a free site where we can showcase and share poems, recieve feedback and enter poetry competitions and where people freely give up their time to moderate, nominate and judge also free of charge.

Milly x

We're lucky for the few members who volunteer their time and energy to judge. The door is open to all. Most of us have busy schedules. Work. School. Travel. Family. Illness. You name it, and yet some members still answer the call. I'm so grateful for those members. The opinion that a judge's choices are inadequate or flawed in some way is subjective. If you think you can do better - great. Sign up next term and give it your best shot.

It'd be great if poet names could be hidden on the nominations page. Alas, Janis is a myth and we're stuck in the dark ages.

The opinion that a judge's choices are inadequate or flawed in some way is subjective.

^^^^

I never said I thought any of the judges (past or present) were inadequate or flawed in their judgement, I just suggested that they could, perhaps, expand their options to include lesser known members who are equally talented as some of the better known members.

If you think you can do better - great. Sign up next term and give it your best shot.

^^^

I have in the past and, in this most recent term, offered my services as a judge but, since I could not fulfill all the requirements needed my offer was passed over.

Alas, Janis is a myth

^^^

Actually. he was signed in yesterday for a bit...not sure if any of the mods saw that?

EDIT

Darren, loved your equation. I'm glad to see someone still has a sense of humour on here :)

I'm genuinely curious- What if a judge or perhaps judges don't like any poems a certain week, and they don't vote for any poem, what would happen?

Interesting question and one that I can only speculate on. As a senior member I have a choice whether I nominate or not but, unfortunately the judges don't really have that privilege I feel so...if they come up against this situation they will likely have to vote. Will they be bold enough to say "I didn't really like your poem but it was better than that one so I'm reluctantly giving it a 10" (explanation not compulsory). "It made me Think" but only for a second and then I went back to my mundane tasks as mentioned above. (7) Who on earth nominated this sh*t? Oh well, I have a 4 left.

Mmmm..the other option and, it's one that no one seems to be able to explain in full...the site breaks the tie!!! Now, how does this work exactly? It's the best kept secret on this site but... one theory that keeps me awake at night (not really but I love the drama it may create) is that it all comes down to how many comments a poet has accumulated. This, in all fairness, sounds reasonable, the more you contribute the better the return but...when some of the comments are 'thank you' replies on their own poem and they are included in the count then I begin to hear the 'unfairness bell' which, apparently I'm the only one who hears it on this site or, at least the only one who admits to hearing it.

Anyway Jamie, I'm sure this has , in no way fed your curiosity but, I hope it at least brought a smile to your face while you await a proper answer :)

I am in no way commenting on the main issue surrounding this thread, but I will just point out that I don't believe the site breaks ties anymore. Not sure. Haven't the last few all been done by a spare judge? I may have misunderstood you though, Hellon. Did you mean that the site breaking a tie could be an option if a judge wouldn't vote?

My last post was totally based on a silly 'hypothetical' scenario in answer to Jamie's post :)

Okay.

Well said Milly!

"Whats the point in trying to rehash a subject that's been rehashed to death?"

^^^^ I ask this same question Milly...

Lets just ban everyone who has been here over a year from posting poems... and only nominate folks who have been here under a year... would that be better? <--- Im being sarcastic.

I am just trying to make a point... point being, this subject is one that needs to rest.

I am not going to stop writing and posting on here because it truly is the main thing keeping me going these days, and I have judge so much I have lost count... I have picked my selections on the poem not the poet and I seriously find this topic annoying and rude. This is how I feel and Ill just say this... lets just stop doing the contest .... problem solved.

Hellon, you claimed you couldn’t fulfill arguably the most important requirement of being a judge: writing comments for your choices.
You had time to read through the nominations page and make your choices, but were unwilling to write 1-2 sentences to defend them.
I said it then and I’ll say it again: I’d be happy to open the discussion up to the site as to whether we should allow judges to skip writing comments.

Janis logs in every now and then. Every time the site needs to be renewed, for one. It’s worth shooting him a message though on the off chance he responds, and I have done. Thanks for the head’s up.

Jamie, I assume the judge would select what they believe are the best poems of the week regardless.

Edit: I shouldn’t tease that Janis is a myth since some members might believe it. That was hyperbole :)

This week many of us found we lost access the P&Q site. Suddenly this wonderful free resource was closed to us. The realisation of what this site closing actually meant - no more posting poetry or access to the wide and diverse pool of talented writers. No more access to favourite poems collected over the years. No more online conversations with like the minded people that we know only through the site. No more free poetry competitions or collaborations. It was like this remarkable poetry community had suddenly died. It made me appreciate even more how unique and special a gift this site really is.

We have recently seen an increase in discontent. Threads condemning members who respond to the comments left on their poems - (Which by the way is considered good manners in most cultures). Now we have a post casting aspersions on the integrity and ability of judges - it seems purely on the basis that the judges opinions differ from their own.

What I would like to say to the people suffering from such discontent - Consider instead the alternative.. Imagine that the site no longer exists how much worse that would be? Rather than complain about things that you cannot change be grateful for what you have....- For I think you would be hard pressed to find another poetry site that is half as good as this one. If there was then you would surely be there already and much happier.

I love this site. X

Reply to Silvershoes,

What is great about the competition is not only receiving the feedback of why your poem is a Winner or HM but also because it allows members to see what it is that makes one poem more appealing than another in a judging arena. From the judges perspective you really have to read and digest thoroughly all of the poems in order to be able to make your choices and articulate in a review what it is about those poems that specifically appealed to you above others.

Taking away the reviews diminish the feedback on what makes a poem successful and also means that perhaps an unscrupulous judge could merely skim through the list of poems without effort with no visible justification on how they came to their choices. Which I fear would cause even more discontent than is currently in existence.

Michael,

I love this site as well. <3

Janis came on to be certain the site was functioning after the Google issue. Naturally, he did not stay long enough to accomplish ANYTHING on the to do list.

Bugger it, I swore I would stay off this thread, but I love this site too and wouldn't change a darn thing. Let's just all write, read, love and enjoy.

I too love this site! I feel extremely grateful something like this exists. Write on good people, write on!

I love this site too and I've never questioned anyone else's love of it so I can't understand why people feel the need to bring it up here. I also, never for a moment, suggested anyone stop writing or posting here again, I don't understand people's reasoning behind that? If the members who have contributed to this post are quite happy with the same handful of people winning then so be it.

Hellon, you claimed you couldn’t fulfill arguably the most important requirement of being a judge: writing comments for your choices.
You had time to read through the nominations page and make your choices, but were unwilling to write 1-2 sentences to defend them.

^^^

Let me just clarify this point and, this is something I explained to the mods at the time. There was a couple of appeals made for a 5th judge to come forward. No one had at that point so I explained to the mods that I was having problems putting my words into comments, I knew why I liked a poem but I couldn't find the words (a bit like writer's block perhaps?) this is something I'm still struggling with now. I offered to judge but could not promise a comment, my offered was passed over and I accepted that. It had NOTHING to do with time or lack of it I was, and still am, struggling to even fill 2 lines in a comment.

I know it’s been barely six months since I rejoined, I wanted to stay off this thread as well but I want to say something.

I have been a judge in this short time of mine, and I struggled!! At the end of the week, I end up sometimes changing my mind so many times. I spent too much time thinking of a comment, sometimes it took me an entire day. Whenever the results are out, I kept doubting how different my judgment is.

I would say yes there may be favoritism sometime but it is something that can’t be controlled and in my humble opinion is not bad. When judging, and you stumble upon poems of people you know well, you get moved, inspired and even admire their courage for sharing. At that same time there are complete strangers that you get curious and want to know more about. Take me as an example for a stranger, my poems had made it to the front page, and just last week I got an HM.
How do we as a community applaud these people if not for those judges who volunteer?

Poetry is art that each person has a different eye for, just like paintings. We might like something, others might hate.

I respect everyones opinion, I mean nothing bad. I hope everyone becomes more understanding for each other.

Have a good day/night everyone :)

Hellon, I did not realize it was due to a type of writer's block and not due to time constraint. If you told us that part, it totally slipped my mind and I apologize for making an inaccurate statement.

I still have the message I sent to the mod account. As you know, the messages are no longer precisely dated so it just says 1 month ago.

There's really no need for an apology Jane...I just didn't want people to think I thought of myself as some sort of prima donna who was above commenting, far from it it's, just something I'm struggling with these days.

Milly

As I said, my post was a hypothetical scenario and not to be taken seriously but, as you have honed in on a certain aspect of it with your comment below let me explain my concerns further..

Threads condemning members who respond to the comments left on their poems - (Which by the way is considered good manners in most cultures)

^^^

I never condemned them I just pointed out that these comments are possibly counted as, and included in, the total number of comments a member has made and could possibly affect the outcome in a tie situation when the site breaks the tie (if a tie-break judge is not available). I do agree that it's good manners to say thank you if you feel the need but, this can quite easily be done in a pm and would not affect anyone else.

Helen,
Response to suggestion that thank you's are easily done in PMs - I'm sorry but I disagree.. It is easier to interact on the one comment page. Read a comment and respond with thanks perhaps also adding additional pertinent comments to then move down the page onto the next one is much easier than having to leave the page, click on the link to send a message and then go back to the comment page to repeat the more long winded approach of going in and out of the comments page over and over again.

Also and this is even more important for me. Leaving thanks within the comment thread makes it easier to spot if you have forgotten to thank someone for taking the time to leave a comment, whereas if you are just sending PMs it's an almost impossible task to wade through the many messages to see who you have thanked and not thanked. With regards to the tie's I don't believe that comments have anything to do with it. As far as I understand it the Mods pick a random volunteer judge to break the tie. This subject has really been done to death. Milly x

This subject has really been done to death.

^^^

If you think so then why bring it up here? I made a hypothetical scenario suggestion about many ways poems could reach the front page if the judges decided not to vote one week (all of which were made in jest) and you honed on this particular part of my post therefore highlighting it yourself. The mods do ask for a tie-break judge if there's one available but if not the site breaks the tie and, although it's not 100% clear if the comments come into the equation when this happens it is a theory that the mods have suggested may happen. I understand that some may feel it's easier to just say thanks in the comment section but when it adds to the total comments a poem accumulates then it's something that members should avoid out of consideration (and fairness) to other members. The comment is there with the members name provided so it's still one click after all.

Helen you are entitled to your opinion lets just agree to differ. Milly x

The mods have said in the past that, when the site breaks a tie, there is the possibility that comments count (ALL comments) that is not my opinion it's something that has been offered (by the mods, not me) as a possible method used by the site to break a tie when a stand in judge is not available.

My personal opinion is that, by leaving comments on a poem page, the site becomes more interactive which it is, after all, supposed to be. By posting comments through the pm system simply closes the site off and actually acknowledges that the weekly result (if it even is affected by comments) is more important than actually interacting with other members. This should never be the case on any sort of public forum and the site's inactivity will only be encouraged further. Members must comment openly, be it through comments or thank yous to make this place work, and not squirrel their thoughts away and post them through an individual's private postbox, as it were. That is in complete contradiction to the very nature of a poetry site like this.
I do respect anyone's personal opinion and anyone's choice to post as they please, but this particular subject has been gone over and over. There are members who think it best to post privately and a majority (I would think) who believe otherwise. That has been dealt with; we all have our own views and are all free to do as we choose and that needs to be respected both sides without anyone calling others 'unfair' or anything else because we don't agree. We know what the arguments are and as cliched as it may sound, the world would be boring if we all agreed, so for that particular issue, people need to go about doing exactly as they want to do, especially as it is now largely irrelevant either way, what with the tie-breaking judge in place.
To the judges and their opinions on poems. Again, over and over this has been gone through, and if it was worth rehashing, we wouldn't have another thread concerning it now. It changes nothing and never will. It is human nature to judge - and sometimes, I acknowledge, Hellon, unfairly - but that cannot be eradicated entirely ever, else we would be called machines. I do agree with what Abbey said not long back and what you essentially say, Hellon - judge the poem first and foremost. Even if it means the same person wins 10 times in a row. If that should happen, it might mean there has been unfair bias, but it could just mean that the judges genuinely thought that poet was deserving 10 times in a row. The problem is, we will never know 100% so we have no right, ultimately to question a person's decision when (and this has been said a fair few times now) they are giving their time generously and freely.
I actually believe there is a case to be made on each side of the fence, and I like what Darren posted. Truthfully, the only way the masses can affect the results are by writing more, nominating more, and perhaps most crucially, judging.

Take care, all