Judges please...

Given that we are all ignorant of Janis’ algorithm (if, indeed it’s not just chance), any action to avoid skewing the count in one way may do so in another.

For example, one possible factor is the number of times a poem is viewed. Closing the poem & reopening it multiple times to send PMs to commenters may add to that particular count.

You don't have to open the actual poem to read a comment or reply to it.

Members must comment openly, be it through comments or thank yous to make this place work, and not squirrel their thoughts away and post them through an individual's private postbox, as it were

^^^

So...you are quite happy in the knowledge that, by thanking each and every comment you get openly, that you may be depriving another member who does not of a potential win if the site needs to break a tie?

Yes, Hellon, I am, because like I said, I believe that is far more important in the running of a site like this than winning the weekly. It is supposed to be interactive. Anyway, as before, the topic is largely irrelevant now but each side needs to respect the other. And I do respect your view, I should point out, I just don't agree. Also, I do agree entirely with what Larry says.

Yes, Hellon, I am, because like I said, I believe that is far more important in the running of a site like this than winning the weekly.

^^^

but, each and every thank you comment could be counted and you clearly know it...so, by continuing with these comments you may effectively be enhancing your chances of a win in the event of the site breaking a tie and you are happy with this?

May I just add..when I leave a comment I never go back to check on how it was received unless I've made suggestion for a change and then, only sometimes I will go back to see if the poet has worked something out.

I've said all I can say on the subject, and would only be repeating myself if I continued.

All I'd say is, there's a fair chance of a busy and entertaining discussion thread when Hellon creates one. Just like the old days, give 'em what they want and they'll keep coming back. And yes, I check this thread every time I log on, so all is good for pnq as long as discussions like these are respectful. Hmm, do voyeures like me want that?

I have Promised to give a comprehensive response to Brenda, But I do not feel like doing so. I was even Jet leg then, otherwise, I would not even bother to participate.
No offence to Hellon, I admire her optimism.

I've said all I can say on the subject, and would only be repeating myself if I continued

^^^

Well now you don't seem to have a problem with repeating 'thank you' over and over again now do you? (Sounds good with a real southern drawl)

Hellon, I am passed being baited by you. I genuinely feel very sorry though that, no matter what thread is started or what topic people discuss and disagree on, you end up finding the need to be aggressive, argumentative and rather personal. I have given my views on this thread whilst doing my best to see yours - why do you always want these topics to end up like this. Again, what is clear to everyone here I hope is that I have never once been rude to you but once again,, people disagree with you and this is the result.
I'm sorry you feel like this and sorry it's ended like this again.

Why do you always end up making these threads all about you? I admit I will argue the point, although I would rather call it debating a subject, but can you tell me exactly where I've been aggressive or personal?

You talk about being interactive and how much the site depends on it, isn't this being interactive? and yet...you have a problem with it suddenly, perhaps because it's not all on your terms.

Well now you don't seem to have a problem with repeating 'thank you' over and over again now do you? ?

^^

is that not personal? really? lol

Anyway, you know what, I love you Hellon. Truly. The site needs people like you for the controversy if nothing else. You have left me this marvellous image for the day:

You, turning off the lights, snuggling down into bed with a scowl and arguing bitterly with yourself all night :)

However, don't take that personally as this thread is not all about you.

Take care, Hellon, and keep doing what you do best. I now leave the court to you.... :)

You, turning off the lights, snuggling down into bed with a scowl and arguing bitterly with yourself all night :)

^^^

Have you been perving on me or what????

You know what I miss about this site, very few people know how to give a praise worthy comment anymore and no one criticizes a poem without half the people jumping down that person's throat. It used to be where a person could only nominate a poem if they had 10 praised comments and nothing else. I miss that a lot. No one wants to grow as a poet anymore and everyone is too nice. I miss people who give constructive criticism. This isn't shot at anyone in particular, just nostalgia.

In my opinion I do think that certain names are seen on the front page more frequently than other names. This isn't something that could go unnoticed anyway, I remember Larry used to make a list of poets with top wins in the past, no ? I do not think it's wrong anyway and I understand this wasn't Hellon's argument in the 1st place but it's somehow connected.

However, I also believe that we actually do see new names on the front page but if MORE new names win it would definitely be an achievement.

I cannot say or pretend to know what criteria do all the judges follow to choose poems, however I can't claim that they are choosing the poet, I genuinely think the majority are simply choosing the poems they like the most (and explain their choices by the comments they leave). ALSO, since some members write on daily basis or every few days, they will definitely have higher chances of being nominated and eventually winning more frequently, because they simply have a higher number of poems published.

I do not always nominate poems for poets I follow here - I DO admit that I search for poems in categories to hunt for new names because I think unknown users who are not active on the forums do deserve to be noticed, but I do not do this on weekly basis either, I just do it every now and then.

It's always a good idea to speak up IMO, if that's what Hellon felt, and since judges are unknown, a main-forum thread isn't a bad idea to reach to them.

^
I think most regular members don't mind constructive criticism. If the comment is respectful, I think you are on safe ground. If in doubt, ask.

Jamie, I will just say what I believe, it might be wrong but this is how I see it.

Everyone wants to grow, but I think those who remained active here are those who already somehow grew, the majority have been here for 10 years, 7 years, 12years.. etc. It's true that you learn something new everyday, however, I don't think anyone is too nice, but when you have been writing for 10 years, people perhaps will have less things to say about your work because you have been taking notes throughout the years, no ? I think everyone is open for any type of comments, when I publish a poem for public I'd expect anyone to dislike it or tear it apart or make recommendations. It's just how it has always been.

But as we have all repeatedly said, the site isn't as active as it was in the past, we do not have the same number of members or same options, many things have changed, we are all equal users who love this place and trying to stay around. The change has been drastic but obviously a bunch of people are still interested and this is what's keeping it alive, despite all "flaws.''

Helen

Just before I sign off from this thread I just wanted to add that I think that you underestimate yourself with your assertion that you are incapable of supplying useful feedback on the poems when judging. Clearly this thread has demonstrated your ability to convey your passion in an articulate manner. Therefore writing reviews on any poem after this will be a walk in the park. Which is great news as we can use all the judges we can get . Best wishes Milly x

A judge will vote for whatever poem they deem is worthy of the votes not all judges give a s*** about who writes what, it's all about the sway of how a poem affects the judge, if you don't like it pick a random newbie poet and judge all three contest nominations and see if there is a difference

simply well said

I DO admit that I search for poems in categories to hunt for new names because I think unknown users who are not active on the forums do deserve to be noticed, but I do not do this on weekly basis either, I just do it every now and then.
^^^
Unlike the 'Fab 10' as I like to call them (the ones with blinkers on who only read certain poets) I also look for poets who are equally as good but do not put themselves out there...

I wonder who this mysterious fab ten are??? From someone who tries hard to read almost every poem published I can tell you it's an almost impossible task to read every single one and have the time and inclination to comment. A while ago when this subject was broached before about newbies not getting the right amount of attention. I went undercover as a newbie and proved categorically that if you are new and your poetry is well written that you get the same consideration as more established writers. So as far as I have seen most new poets do get comments and nominations if they have talent. Milly x

My mum used to like the fab 4. She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah

That Lennon guy was a real lyricist:)

I went undercover as a newbie and proved categorically that if you are new and your poetry is well written that you get the same consideration as more established writers. So as far as I have seen most new poets do get comments and nominations if they have talent. Milly x

^^^

Very cloak and dagger stuff I feel but...where is this account now may I ask??

And..feel free to blow your own trumpet about you knack of writing 'well written poetry'.

I remember that, Milly, the funny thing is I never guessed it was you.

Honestly after being on and off here for about 13 years or so, it is unfortunate that this site is a shell of what it once was, but personally I am just going to keep doing what I do and that is comment and write. and hope to receive and keep giving criticism.

Well said Jamie, We live in an ever changing world with so much hate and negativity that regardless of change we are still so lucky to have this lovely little haven where someone can peaceably showcase their poems and have access to a rich diversity of writing from people of different cultures, backgrounds and ages.

Some just come to hone their skills, others to showcase, others just for a place to speak to other like minded people and share a skill that is personal to them. Whatever their reason people are members I think we are all very blessed to have this resource despite its changed face. Milly x

Ben it had a really good outcome because it proved what most people already knew that people are not penalised because they are new. :) x

I can name a great new poet off the top of my head that we should all embrace (and have done that I am aware). Tanya Southey, since joining, has written some exceptional free verse and is a real plus to the site. Then there's other members who are returning like Daniel and STAR who are equally talented and have both received deserved recognition for their work.
Jamie - well said indeed. And if we all do more of that - if we can - then the site will always have a heartbeat, no matter how fluttering that may be.

I do wish each person had one nomination per week instead of three, that way you'd really have to think about who would be deserving of a nomination and in theory more poems would be read.

"I do wish each person had one nomination per week instead of three, that way you'd really have to think about who would be deserving of a nomination and in theory more poems would be read. "

how would more poems be read if one person had one nomination per week instead of three? ten people nominate using your rules, its ten poems ten people nominate using three votes, that's 30 poems. more poems to be judged

In theory it would allow different poets to be read and therefore more poems. BUT the biggest thing is that it wouldn't allow one person to nominate the same poet 3 times. Yes I observe and that happens a lot more than people think.

if a person nominating thinks that three poems by the same poet should be nominated, what's wrong with that? the judges still have to score the poem, and if the judges think those three poems should win, whats wrong with that? two wins or three wins do happen but dont happen a lot for everyone to start saying people nominating should only have to nominate different poets, what if the person nominating doesnt like the other poets this week? if you want more variety instead of adding more restrictions to the already small amount of people that nominate each week, get more people to nominate. more people nominating, more poems, more choices for the judges to choose from. don't like the judges, be a judge yourself or just don't have any judges and let the algorithm however flawed it might be determine the winners

I'd love to know who you 'really' are Billy Tolosa because you seem to know a whole lot of the goings on of the site and you only joined when? Today ....

A bit off topic, but not really.

Bout of insomnia, so I decided to run some numbers.

As of right now, there are 1,316 poems that have won the weekly contest (excluding HMs).
Of those 1,316 poems, there were 34* times were a poet was responsible for more than one of those poems on the front page (2.58% of the time).

299 poets have graced the front page.

142 poets have won more than once (47.49%) [These poets have an average of 220 poems, mode: 221, median: 119.5]
70 poets have won at least 5 times (23.41%) [These poets have an average of 268 poems, mode: 176, median: 140]
35 poets have won at least 10 times (11.70%) [These poets have an average of 325 poems, mode: 176 , median: 192]
20 poets have won at least 15 times (6.69%) [These poets have an average of 388 poems, mode: n/a, median: 212]
14 poets have won at least 20 times (4.68%) [These poets have an average of 472 poems, mode: n/a, median: 316.5]
12 poets have won at least 25 times (4.01%) [These poets have an average of 476 poems, mode: n/a, median: 257.5]
7 poets have won at least 30 times (2.34%) [These poets have an average of 660 poems, mode: n/a, median: 312]
3 poets have won at least 40 times (1%) [These poets have an average of 1259 poems, mode: n/a, median: 1169]
and only one poet has won 50 times (0.33% and that would be Andrea who has 1169 poems)

Out of the 157 members who have only won once, 57 of them joined after August 2010, 31 joined after Feb 2014, 13 joined after Jun 2017, 6 joined after August 2018, with 3 of them joining this year (2/3 of them being old members making a new account).

Out of the 142 members who have won more than once, 93 joined after May 2007, 71 joined after Jul 2009, 49 joined after April 2012, 31 joined after Jan 2014, 12 joined after April 2017, 7 of them joined after Jan 2018. One of them misses the 2019 cut off by a month (joined December, 2018).

A quick cursory glace at awards shows that for those who won more than once they had at a gold award (poems submitted, comments written/praised or favourited), with most of them having some sort platinum award. **

* Info gathered from scraping: https://www.poems-and-quotes.com/contests/winners?page=1 to https://www.poems-and-quotes.com/contests/winners?page=110, with the assumption that every 3 poems is a week. This might not be the case, poets can have deleted winning poems, or closed their accounts. I have no way to remedy this.

** I couldn't separate the awards while scraping reliably so they were joined together meaning (awards -> p,c,f) instead of (p->gold, c->silver, f-> gold) or whatever. Had I been able to, could shed some more light on relationship between awards (activity) and winning, i.e is submitting more poems more likely to get you multiple wins or being a praised commenter (networking with other people who may return the favour and increase your likelihood of getting nominated and thus win).

Also it's pretty late, very likely I messed up some of the percentages or numbers, or somewhere along the line.

Spreadsheet of this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B4Zlz287dQFcE3vUASdCz4_ppidWKp5h1OENZ53vlQs/edit#gid=1642545448

Mark? Christ this site has missed your unnerving way with numbers...

Mark...without a doubt you are very good at crunching numbers and to highlight Andrea with 1169 poems posted and 50 wins sounds really good but when I look at Ben Pickard who has only been here (rejoined I know) since Feb 2018 with 115 poems posted and 28 wins that percentage changes.

Having said that...this thread started out with a concern I have about how the judges vote so...can you run another spread sheet for that?

All I know is that my wife is pregnant for the fourth time with our third boy. Now there are some numbers for you to crunch, Mark...and a possible spreadsheet? :)

Hmmm, interesting

What exactly is your concern Hellon?
Is it that Ben is winning more than others?

Congrats Ben.