Judges Please #II

I am upset that Jamie is feeling frustrated to this extent, but I also admit that he has a point. Jamie don't deprive us from your beautiful work, when I checked your profile the other day and saw that you have erased your poems I sent you a PM instantly, I do follow you up even if I do not always comment, but I do when possible.

What Bob said is true, however, I read your work because I like your poetry and your style. I do not write often so I do not do it for comments or to receive comments. So let go of your decision and do not allow such minor issues to distract you from what you came here for. It's people like you who kept the site going.

It's obvious that we have a lot to fix but at least we all obviously care about P ^Q; we can do better.

We should all try be more involved and seek ways to boost poetry-related activities and topics.

Bob - great post. There's so many truths in what you have written.

There have been some really great suggestions on how to manage the "Weekly Competition" and maybe the Moderators who know more how the mechanics of the site work could fine tune them to where they are feasible and either set up a trial on one or open it up to a vote of one or two of them and then go live.

Jamie isn't the first to have expressed discontent about the quality of commenting on the site because some seek in depth critiques as a means to improve their poetry whilst others are happy for appreciation in any form. I think people generally do the best that they can within the restraints of time, energy levels, concentration and skill sets and should be allowed to leave comments of their appreciation at whatever level is achievable or comfortable for them.

Having said that there is nothing to stop a poet leaving a personal comment asking for a more indepth critique and if people are able then I feel sure that they will oblige because P&Q members are in general a very friendly supportive bunch .

I do have a suggestion to throw into the mix.. As someone who hasn't really been writing poetry for very long I really struggle sometimes getting to grips with different aspects of poetry like meter, forms and iams etc. and it occurred to me that there that it would be really useful if there could be a weekly thread that offers help with growing poetry skills?

From posting instructions on how to write in-depth comments to how to write a specific form or how to conquer meter with perhaps an add on challenge pertaining to the lesson for the week.

One challenge might be pick one poem and write an in depth critique of x amount of words using all of the components mentioned in the instructions. Or it could be write and submit a poem written in the style of a sonnet or x amount of syllables or write a free form poem (Free form is notoriously difficult for those who favour rhyming just as abab rhyme schemes can be equally difficult for those who favour only free rhyme)

It could be a thread where poets also add some personal hints and tips of what has worked for them per subject and would be great not only for helping improve skills but it would also be building a wonderful resource for up and coming poets and for anyone keen to hone their craft. Sharing skills in a subject that we are all passion about surely must be a positive more forward?

Thank you, Ben.

Absolutely Rania. he is another case of great talents always reaching rock bottoms. We as "beautiful souls" sometimes grow weary from the BS.s of life. So we get intolerant. This is why now that everyone is gone, and retreated, Jamie is even angrier.
We with this mentality ( beautiful soul) misinterpret the silence of the peace, sometimes with submission to unjust, I say I am this way too, but I have absolute control over my bipolar-schizophrenia's tendencies. I am in no way a regular patient. Practising some meditation, I ventured that realm, So, because of choosing to be that way, I can choose to be not also.
Like every time that I chose to find here intolerable, I returned, so I must have seen my mistake, why? Every time that I returned I also made a confession underneath that I regretted to leave. (realizing that there was a chance always, that I did not venture into. that could make me adapt or turn the situation to something better))

Insightful posts from you guys. I agree with Jamie that there might be too much emphasis on the weekly contest and not enough on other important aspects of this site. We are ultimately here because of a shared passion for poetry, and that can get muddled up in the importance we routinely place on the contest and who wins it. I wish that the contest was less of a struggle (recruiting judges, that is) so it would not continuously be at the forefront of moderator responsibility.

Solutions, solutions, solutions. I would like to start poet of the fortnight back up (Larry's suggestion), though I might have to pass the torch to another host when the school year starts back up. My last year of grad school! I also think a weekly "how to" thread is a fabulous idea. Exercises taught by members of this site? I love it! I think this would be really engaging and helpful, and we could cover all sorts of topics, including how to write various forms, how to avoid cliches, how to show and not tell (leave just enough to the imagination), how to dissect/critique a poem, etc. Potential topics and exercises are limitless.

I really like the idea of poets sharing tips, advice, hosting workshops. Doing this at university really helped me as a writer, and you know that everyone has something to offer. We are all always learning. Perhaps it could be a weekly or bi weekly thing. :) More positive communication and sharing in the message boards could really distract us from the weekly contest.

People shouldn’t shy away from requesting comments, feedback on their poems too. My inbox, for example is always open. That thread we opened a while ago was good, but then died a little.

I like the idea of multiple topics that go beyond the different forms of poetry like How to avoid cliches and how to show and not tell, how to dissect a poem etc. Why not try and get a feel for what everyone would like to see published first and and plan to start next week? Maybe one thread for how to do a particular poetry form and another for advice on how to dissect and critique a poem??

:) :)

Perhaps it could be a weekly or bi weekly thing.

^^

I second the above

I've just re-read this whole thread to get up to speed.

Seems the solution to a number of issues raised is plain for all to see.

Problem one
Judges are biased and picking poets over poetry

solution? Don't have judges anymore

Problem two
It's getting more and more difficult to recruit judges each term for the weekly.

solution? Don't have judges anymore.

Problem three
Judges step forward, give up some time and are roundly criticized.

solution? Don't have judges anymore (we can then aim our cannons at the site algorithm )

Problem four

The site is growing stale and we need new ideas for running the weekly contest.

solution? Don't have judges anymore.

Problem five

There is too much emphasis on the weekly contest.

solution? Don't have judges anymore. (let the weekly run as a random event in the background)

There we have it problem solved, in the last few years on this site I have solved the Greek debt crisis, the expanding universe puzzle and now the weekly contest saga.
I think I missed my calling.

Darren,
There you go... I like your solution.
The repetition of it is also so enchanting.

Edit: if you don’t mind can you also copy it in this thread.

https://www.poems-and-quotes.com/threads/147151

Listen here to this my little ditty
this heinous post is destined to consume
kinship locked in battle is a pity
Forewarned now see the coming of the doom

Corrosive words fuel the burning ashes
brings darkened shadows to a greying day
speak instead tones of sunlight and molasses
keep this dark negativity at bay

For we have a future yet unwritten
a community together in one soul
with poetry and the site we're smitten
with solutions we're on a forward roll

So dust off those past recriminations
work together for a common goal
move ahead with positive creations
which for everyone means a little toll

Milly you didn't answer my question so I'll ask it again...

you think I'm a cyber bully, is this correct?

I love how people think the weekly contest is the problem but as i have said a million times before people don't know how to comment on this site. There are only a handful of people that know how to leave real feedback. Please do not nominate my poems as i will just delete the ones nominated. Thanks.

BTW I'm still with hellon in saying all she was doing was being honest and just because you can't take her honesty doesn't mean she's wrong. The site is biased as hell and just because most people turn a blind eye to it doesn't make it less true.

I derive this site of my poetry because of what i stated above. Also due to the fact that my poems get more attention on Facebook than they do on an actual "poetry" site. This "poetry" site has turned into a frivolous weekly contest. I know i am definitely better off posting my poetry elsewhere where i know I'll actually get feedback. This is the only reason i am on here anymore. But i keep asking myself what is even the point anymore? Why do i continue to waste my time? Maybe deep down i hope this site will change but i have been here for 13 years and really nothing has changed at all. In fact it has probably become worse. At least back then people actually gave a sht about poetry. Now all people want is their ego stroked by winning some god damn contest that in the end doesn't mean sht.

If you really want this site to change get people to comment or actually learn how to comment. Otherwise this site is dead, and probably has been for a few years now.

“I love how people think the weekly contest is the problem but as i have said a million times before people don't know how to comment on this site.” By Jamie

^ People know how to comment on this site. If you really want a good comment, your poem has to create that effect on people.

Edit: also, you keep on deleting your poems, and the comments you have received. In my opinion, you are not giving value to the comments you received in the past and the present, and in those 13 years you’ve been here I’m sure you have received pretty good comments. It’s not worth writing critical comments when we know you’ll just delete them and not value them. At least that’s how I feel. Why waste my time ?

Here's the tough thing though, what may or may not be considered real feedback to you could be considered something totally different to someone else.

I think implying that we don't give a sh** about poetry if we don't leave good enough comments is a cheap and unnecessary shot. What constitutes as good enough? Is it if we're consistent in commenting or if we leave a hearty comment analyzing each stanza or line? Cause I've seen some ridiculously long comments that really don't say much (and I've been one to ramble and babble on too) but I've also read some mind-blowing comments that are only three or four lines yet profound.

Yes, as poets and friends we should definitely challenge ourselves and others to take that time and leave feedback when we can. Obviously all of us could do more. I remember a thread way back when about tips for being on PnQ, and one of the points was that you will receive what you give. That's true. However, we shouldn't come to expect a flood of feedback every time we log in. That's not reality. That's an ideal situation, sure, but poets are working out and through their own stuff. I would rather a poet not feel forced to leave feedback and do so if they are inspired and have the time. I don't want them to feel pressured to leave paragraphs and paragraphs when simply sharing that they connected the piece is enough for me. You can't force "good" comments and people shouldn't be called out as bad commenters if they leave a few lines, if that's all they can do at the time.

To bounce off of Luce's comment, I don't believe the issue is poets not knowing how to comment. It's a joint effort - providing insight or ways you related to the piece AND actually being affected by the poem itself. If a poem creates a lot of imagery but doesn't move me emotionally, I may not have a great deal to say or my comment may focus on the imagery more than what I felt. If a poem is super emotional, I may be more likely to come back and share if I have that energy. It all depends. There's no universal right way to comment. Comment what you feel, even if it's a few lines, at least it's your thoughts. It's silly to me to keep this idea that a poet has to always be up to standard commenting in order to be "enough" of a poet.

We all have different reasons to post on here, and that's fine and all reasons should be valid. If you want specific feedback and those needs aren't being met by members, that is what the workshops and threads SHOULD be for. We did have one started a few months ago but it fizzled out. We should get on that, then. Of course we're not like Facebook or other social media sites and I'm glad for that! There will always be new innovative sites popping up. Personally? I don't care if my poetry is showcased or gains attention. It's fine if you want recognition, perhaps all of us do subconsciously to some extent, but it's not my REASON and DRIVE as to why I come here and choose PnQ time and time again. Just please don't insinuate that those of us who post but may not comment frequently (or to your standard) suddenly don't care about the art of poetry anymore.

That's not to say we won't grow but it also doesn't mean we're "less" of a poetry site. There's always something we can do better, but I'm just over this barrage of negativity. We make do with what we have at the moment. I'm grateful people are posting when they feel inspired and commenting if they feel moved to <3

Well said MA :)

I second that ^_^

Thirded. Is that a word? Great post, MA.

Thank you MA, Thank you!

I fourth triple second that

Fantastically replied MA!!

It is so true MA. Those diversities some are due to the temporary, or semi-temporary moods, and some to the difference in personalities in each individual, as you mentioned. In the same scale, not everyone is energetically free or evolve to see the things as clear and simple as you described, because when we are conflicted inside, (as we all are more and less, ) we tend to externalize the inside conflict, by complicating things. So not everyone should we expect to be as tolerant and relax as you are, for good hopefully, but perhaps for the time being.
A GOOD AND STURDY SHEEP MUST BE ABLE TO HANDLE TURBULENCE. Only old ones retired on the calm fancy rivers such the Thames

Hellon It happened to me too, Mily always brings the BULLY thing exactly when someone is arguing with Ben. It could be a coincident too, that the two major occasions that she brought this up, happened when Ben was arguing with someone. I think those coincidences are a good subject for an essay on Law and Morality, but not here.
It might be, if the case, She is too overprotective over Ben. It seems everyone is.., Larry's proverbial duck post, hosed the forums with such unusual zealotry that shocked a few good poets out of this site, by absolutely abashing their dreams. So obviously, consequently whenever The bully subject rises it gets Larry's support as well.

But no I do not think you are a bully. Believe me when I say so. But I think you are a bit exhibitionist, and that covers your genuine motive or put it to question in some mindes who rather find an easier path.

Mods...I beg you not to close this thread just yet...I'm babysitting right now but...I do have more I'd like to question/add to.

EDIT

and, I'm still waiting for a reply from Milly...

Although I do somehow understand your concern Jamie, but if you are reading this, please note that I failed to understand your anger. I am sad you left again because it doesn't add anything to the issue, I tried to reach out to you via PM when you deleted your poems before, but you did not reply, so although you do have the right to do whatever you want with your work and to express your concerns, but also you're not helping by building barriers.

I have recently got back to reading and commenting as before following the recent threads we all opened, so even if insignificant I think this was a fair outcome ? Maybe others were also encouraged to be engaged more in reading and commenting after the debates we had, but it needs time to show?

It's not very cool to just throw accusations around and leave, it's not fair. I hate that you are not here to reply to any of these posts, but maybe when you come back, if you do, you could see things from a different perspective.

As MA said and as BOB highlighted, not everyone has the ability to express themselves via blocks of comments and yet not everyone as well has the tolerance to understand why he's not receiving or "seeing" the feedback he expects. I do think this is a subjective matter, however, I also think this is a great place and the people here love this place for just how it is. Not the most special website, it's an abandoned website actually and we all come here and write our work, some people write to learn more and look for constructive criticism like you, others like me, just post their poems because it's my "breather." I never log in expecting comments, I actually get surprised when someone leaves feedback and ofcourse it makes me happy that someone has made this humble journey reading my poems. So maybe you're a little bit overthinking about the whole process, but no one can judge you for that, so perhaps you should come back and relax and also not judge other users of how they like to contribute and how they express themselves. We can never know what the other person is thinking.

Just to clarify my own position as it rumbles on. I never once had any issue with Hellon's initial issue that was raised with the judges - in fact, I may have even said I understood her opinion to an extent. My own view is that there is no bias or no proof of bias and as long as there is no proof, how can we attribute that negative problem to people who are volunteering their time? But that's just my view and Hellon has hers, that's fine. My only issue came when my name was repeatedly singled out later on in the thread. Does that make me over sensitive? Maybe. But it certainly made me uncomfortable as (to me) it did then feel a little personal. Perhaps Hellon never meant it that way, but as Bob says, we are all different and are not all capable of seeing things clearly. I know that my own emotions certainly make the idea of clarity a pretty hard damn thing to come by all too often.
Believe it or not, confrontation is horrible for me - it literally churns me up so I probably should never get involved as Rania and Larry pointed out. And if there is a way to end this discussion and name calling then I would love to do that, especially as my name is still being mentioned. Hellon, do I personally feel like you are a bully? Not as a rule at all, but I do feel that over that particular period, I was being continually highlighted next to a lot of facts and figures when the discussion had been more general before that. That is just how I feel and as I said above, I am only trying to be honest and in no way do I want more arguments.
I think the biggest problem is that we are all such different people with such different thresholds of emotional upset. Hellon, you alluded to the fact that you had tough skin or something like that and you said that it was just the internet so toughen up. I envy you that, seriously, but I certainly do not have that same skin as you! I wish I did. Things that seem daft to you genuinely upset me. If that has caused confusion or confrontation, then I am sorry for that. The silly thing is, if everyone on this thread got together, we would probably get on a treat (now there's a thought). After all, we do share one glaring quality (and it is a quality) - our love for words and art. And by the way, Hellon, I personally don't believe that anyone who can write like you are capable of is quite the tough old bird she would have us all believe. Maybe I'm wrong... Bob too - we have had our differences, but I genuinely appreciate your skill with words.
I hope this post is taken the way it's meant and puts some things to bed. I also hope it highlights all the many things we have to be thankful for round these parts. Issues can be raised and dealt with, but not necessarily with the negativity that has accompanied them before (for which I have often been to blame for a good share)
I've written this on a blasted tablet so there's probably a fair few mistakes that I really can't be bothered to edit! So sorry for that.

MA - I one hundred your comment, good woman!

First of all, I am against bullying to my bones Haha if it were not the case I would not be here… defenceless, exposed to all kind of harms and retaliation, suspension, no matter how respectful I will be if dare to speak the truth and my mind.

See Winston Churchill once said this “self-reflecting”, wise words: that the …society consists of layers of thieves, though the bigger thieves arrest the smaller thieves and put them in the prisons.

In his dedicated ‘Fortnight’ ddavidd ( it is still there you could check) mentioned that the character he created “ddavidd” was so prone to get crucified (all the square objects are, by attracting tragedy.) (Watch the movie, Patch Adams).
Then later he was bullied and crucified by the bully’s accusation. (a complete square)
If this doesn’t qualify for tragedy, without a doubt the judgment against it over qualifies for comedy.

Only a complete square could contain comedy and tragedy at the same time.
So I am not complaining, I am saying thank you. Without your help, without getting enraged by the injustice I could never get there.
And I am sure the greatest of you had that in mind doing what you did(wink, wink)

Hellen it has been the longest babysitting ever known to mankind
Haha just wanted to know if we're still waiting
:)(:

Edited ::
Ben a true peace means the balance of forces. If either of us, for example, has ever attempted to bully the other, he would be forced to vacate the space of peace and equilibrium that he disturbed or attempted to disturb, in his mind forever. Or at least until he truly and publicly repents. I think that would be nothing but fair. Wouldn't you say so?

**

I only came to support a fellow poet here (Hellon), and to show to some of my friend here, that fears are temporary, though not being able to sleep at night without fear, is everlasting. So always stand up for right no matter what.
So if there is no objection I had my peace, so I drop the subject. Unless someone asks me in somehow to respond or something.

Love and peace

The thread now has 107 posts. Holding off closing it for Hellon's request, but as others add to it it gets harder to stretch the rules.

I did plan on adding to this thread but, on return from babysitting duties Ben had left his comment which changed things for me. I refuse to let him play another 'victim card' here so I think it's best for all if this thread is now closed.