Weekly Contest Winners - June 21, 2021!

Hello! Hope you've all been well. This week, two of the judges highlighted Rania's piece, "Corrosion", a powerful look into corrosion in our own hearts, how the presence of someone, and the impact they have, can linger and taint everything we do. Whether we hold regret or guilt associated with our past with them, or whether we're wondering why we can't move on and grow from their presence. Next, new member Katrynn shines with her first win on this site in "Leaving The Past", a short but ticking piece that comments on the importance of adapting and moving forward, not necessarily forgetting the past, but challenging ourselves in what's to come. And last but not least, the site broke a tie for third place between Noura, Em and Keira. Noura's poem "With Him on the Observation Deck", shows the light, aura and memory of a beloved person. That they are the summit, the view in all things you and others seek to see.

Congrats to the winners and the honorable mentions! Many thanks to our three judges for their time.

Have a great week!

-MA

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WINNERS:

"Corrosion" by: Rania Moallem

"This piece caught me off guard as I really thought at first it would be about some kind of metal/stone being corroded away but upon reading it, it made sense and I now understand a person can corrode/damage or weaken us over time or instantly and make us feel demented which is not a good feeling. The imagery throughout is astounding and somewhat relatable to me and no doubt, many others." (10)

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"Metaphors can be a powerful tool for a writer. The word, ‘corrosion’ is one that surrounds us, we all age and see a world eroding around us; but what if the corrosion was that of one’s conscience? Often writers, especially us poets are haunted souls, they start out on this road as a form of therapy. We write about what we know and what we need to express. Guilt and regret about what used to be and what is now is a compelling theme. How do we escape a history that takes so long to corrode? Keep writing, keep healing, keep on keeping on." (10)

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"Leaving The Past" by: Katrynn

"I truly love and adore this poem. The rhythm was really a wonderful setting within the poem, it made me feel like the clock was ticking. Each time the clock strikes one things remain in the past. Leaving the past behind. This poem held a powerful message, it was fun to read and very unique!!" (10)

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"With Him on the Observation Deck" by: nourayasmine

"I absolutely loved this, it may seem like a simple poem by nourayasmine but it's not as simple as what it makes out to be in my eyes I can't quite put my finger on why but this struck a chord with me.... It shows this person means a lot to you and even in a crowded room you'd only see them; pure genius!" (7)

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HM's:

"Disaster (acrostic)" by: Em

"Em has created another magical acrostic. It flows endlessly to the ending and it makes your heart fall to pieces. Loneliness is a gutting feeling that cant be easily shaken. The world of abuse harbors endless memories and it's bittersweet poems such as this that come to life. Just beautiful!" (7)

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"Nightmare (Free Verse)" by: Keira Pickard

"The thing with creative writing and with this site is that it is not restrictive. Write a Haiku, a piece of free verse it is all good within these walls. Keira has flexed herself and written an atmospheric piece. The language and imagery complement the theme. She uses space as a tool, artfully leading the reader into an imaginative walk across this particular canvas. I can tell you, this exposed a bit of my child’s inner fear." (7)

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"A Tree’s Deception" by: Star

"Tree's are probably the #1 most written about in the nature genre and this is the first poem I have read with a powerful and wonderful twist. The title and message make this poem stand out. The shape is an added beauty to the eye when reading!!" (4)

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"Even now.." by: Michael

"This is a simplistic form but one you have to be good at to do well and Michael has done a fantastic job here. I love the different connotations that can be taken from this piece as in it could be a lost love or a friendship that's turned sour but either way it'll not be forgotten hence the last line." (4)

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"Food for Thought" by: Maher

"Are men slaves to their own egos, still thinking/ clinging to a superficial power. One day we will realise that we are more similar to our ecosystem that we realise - disrespect one element over another at our peril! Food for thought, indeed!" (4)

Thank you, MA for hosting this week and to our judges Another great week, full of excellent writes! Congratulations to our winners and Jolly well done for those spanking brand-new HM's. :)

Congratulations, everyone! Thank you for the HM and lovely comment on my poem, MA for hosting and the judges for all of their time. Well done to all :)

Thank you so much for the comment ^_^
Congrats winner and HMs

Judges and MA thank you for your time!!

Congrats to Rania, Noura & Katrynn. Congrats also to the honorably mentioned. Thanks to the judges and to MA for posting.

I don't comment much but it doesn't mean I don't read what's submitted, though I really should start I think. I am confused why mine got an HM as it's not a poem in any sense, just an event I thought would be interesting to share. But thank y'all anyway, it's a pleasant surprise!

Congrats to all and thank you for sharing your work with the world :)

Well done, all, and thank you, judges

Congrats to all the Winners and HM's!
Thank you judges a d thank you for hosting MA!

Thanks for hosting, thanks to the judges especially the one who saw my piece worthy of their vote.

Congratulations to all front pagers and other HM's and good luck to all for the week ahead

Hello! Thanks, host-mod, judges and whoever nominated my poem!

I don’t usually find poetry “offensive”, or irritating. If I do, I don’t usually make a comment about it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and free to write whatever they wish to.

But I’d be lying if I say that one of this week’s poems did not offend, irritate and hurt me. I found it demeaning, judgmental and inconsiderate, let alone poetically flawed and lacking of a discernible point, in my humble opinion.

It did not annoy me only as a woman, but as a person who never judges people, respects all races/religions/cultures/sexual orientations. I’m actually even more annoyed that it got nominated and voted on and almost on the front page.
How could a “poem” so degrading end up as a Honorable Mention?
If I was visiting PnQ (an American poetry website in 2021) and read a piece that shames women so awfully on the front page, I’d run away in a heartbeat.

You’re free to say whatever you want as long as you don’t disrespect others and call women “slaves”.

I “go clubbing”. I wear less in summer, and almost nothing on the beach. Actually my favorite type of apparel is very short overalls. I have tattoos. And you know what I also do? I come up with new drugs formulas. I have a masters in pharmaceutical chemistry. I am a volunteer and an active animal rescuer. What else? I write amazing poetry. I battle trauma. I support my community. I’m not a slave. Not a slave to men, not a slave to traditions, not a slave to a closed, judgmental mind. I’m free as a bird. Actually as a damn eagle.

Prove me wrong.

Edit: And fyi, women do design womens’ clothes too. Google this list of creative enslavers: Bonnie Cashin, Anne Klein, Carolina Herrera, Donna Karan, Vera Wang, and Tracy Reese.

My club members mentioned to me the poem 'Food for Thought' my Maher in a private discussion, but I didn't get around to reading it until now. Noura, I agree with your assessment. It's patronizing, sexist, objectifying, and gross.

Maher, I don't know who you are as a person otherwise, but this conversation that happened is not clever or enlightening, and frankly it's scary that you think this way. You're threatened and confused by female sexuality and have double standards and victim-blaming tendencies that need to be addressed. First, let's talk about purity culture, which is that a woman's morality is somehow linked to her sexual behavior, rather than her honesty, loyalty, kindness, or altruism. This antiquated, sexist concept is that a woman loses value by having casual, consensual sex. It also plays upon the ridiculous concept of virginity = purity. Putting female virginity on a pedestal in this way, suggesting a woman’s worth lies in her sexual behavior, puts females at greater risk of violence, abuse, and assault. That you think a woman is spoiled goods if she's promiscuous indicates to me that you harbor intense feelings of possession over female bodies. Terms like gatekeeping and objectifying come to mind. Also, you believe women are passive objects of male sexual desire and that sex is a reward. Yikes! Maher, sex is not a "reward" for men. Maybe it has been in your experience, in which case you might want to brush up on your bedroom skills, but sex should be enjoyable and rewarding for both partners. "Free perv and sex pass" suggests that you think that the way a woman dresses, if not modest enough for your taste, gives a man a free pass to be a pervert, maybe even to sexually assault or rape her. That, or you're falling back once more on the bizarre notion that sex is for men and not for women. Double yikes. First, I'd like to quickly debunk the myth that a woman's wardrobe can prevent men from being gross. Evidence suggests repeatedly that women are harassed, catcalled, assaulted, and raped regardless of what clothes they wear. Second, there are a lot of female fashion designers. Yes, there are more men, but the funniest flaw in your argument is that most of these men are gay. The creative designer for Gucci, Alessandro Michele, is gay. Tom Ford, who recruited him? Gay. Your assertion, "...expensive skimpy clothes that are designed by men who want to see you naked," doesn't hold up. Even if it did, once again you've found a way to insult women by implying they can't think for themselves. Nice. I have to stop there for now, but I'll happily debate you on this topic further if you want. In the meantime, I'll be worrying about you.

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Oops, I’d of course like to add a hearty congratulations to the winners this week, as well as a thank you to the judges and to our lovely host.

Can I just point out that neither of you, Noura & Jane, made any reference to the comment by the female co-worker that sparked Maher's response which you have both objected to....

"Oh that's right, you're Muslim. You guys oppress your women like slaves."

This is a very racist comment that seems to have been ignored and may have led to a response that, although I don't agree with, I didn't find offensive because it was just his opinion on which type of female he prefers and opinions are still something we are allowed to have and still have the freedom of speech to voice.

As for the Hm well...he questioned that himself so, no more to add there.

Well, I think at least all four of us (maybe five, if the author is included) can agree that piece of work didn’t deserve any honour at all.

There was a racist comment in this formulated piece, Hellon, but it clearly centres on making a point about sl** shaming, a form of social punishment that is related to victim blaming for sexual assault. This is a vile mindset, and I’m glad Noura spoke up about it.

I agree with everything Jane said so wonderfully. I hope everyone here reads it twice.

Maher, mate, give yourself and other men a little more credit. You must think men are just brainless masses of slavering grunting grabbing ogling morons, incapable of constructing thought and giving respect, and woefully fragile about a woman’s agency over her own sexuality…. That’s really sad, man. But feminists are fighting for your cause, don’t worry. We think men are capable of so much more than that. In the meantime, you could also try standing up for men’s intelligence more, yeah? Practice.

Congrats to all the winners and those who picked up a HM. Like everyone said, Food for Thought shouldn't have been considered/nominated. Hadn't read it till now, but after looking through some of his older work, came across: https://www.poems-and-quotes.com/poems/1272466 which is just as concerning. There's a history of this.

You can be religious without sl** shaming.

Respect to judges and poets alike but that’s a biiiiig yikes on the “Food For Thought” HM.

Hellon, read Abby’s response to you to know what I think about your takeaway. The author states that someone else (not on this site) made a racist comment, but the substance of the “poem” is the PnQ author arguing an extremely sexist, demeaning case about women and female sexuality. If instead the author was responding to a sexist comment with an extremely racist, demeaning case about Muslims, that would also be a problem. Obviously. But that’s not what happened and your point is null. Also, I find it convenient, slightly laughable, whenever someone argues that a racist or sexist statement is “just an opinion” and therefore shouldn’t be questioned or addressed. His “opinion” is degrading and ignorant. You can see that I’m not abusing my mod powers. I’m voicing my argument against the presence of sexism (and practice of honoring sexism) on this site, and that’s my right as a member. Sorry if you don’t like it.

I believe in giving a person the benefit of the doubt and after reading "Food for Thought" I assumed that Maher had been provoked by his co-worker after her racist slur into retaliating in a manner that was more heat of the moment and related to this one particular person rather than women in general, hence my first response. However, since reading the second poem, highlighted by Mark, I wonder if the author does indeed have rather narrow minded views on how women should act/dress/conduct themselves in today's society. (although I do note that the comments on the second poem, all by female members, seem to favour his opinion). I'm not sure how to resolve this situation but I think it only fair to ask the author to come on here and defend/explain his words/thoughts.

Wanted to say that I too felt uncomfortable reading it, but at the time had too many jumbled thoughts to coherently speak on it. Jane wrote so many good points I wish more people could understand. It pains me to see that others were hurt by it as well, though I'm thankful to Noura and everyone else here for bringing it up. It's important to talk about. Especially if it actively perpetuates harmful ideas/attitudes toward women. I think it's one thing to write about countering a clearly racist remark, and another thing to use that as almost a jumping board for sexism. However you feel about sex on a personal level is up to you, but falsely correlating sexual activity/how someone dresses/openness on sex with morality is nonsense in my opinion. There's no association between them. It is INCREDIBLY gross to suggest that women need to have more "boundaries" or "standards", or that the right kind of woman will wait to be approached and not flirt or chase men or whatever else. The idea that women should act a certain way to be more of a feminist is ludicrous. I've had others ask me before: why do female singers/dancers dance a certain way and sing blatantly about sex, if they want to be taken more seriously as women? Shouldn't they choose to use their platform for less shock value or explicit material? To some degree, I understand how people could come to that conclusion, that it's playing into the industry or society or men's fantasy, but the point is that NO ONE should be able to comment. It's a step back in feminism if we, as men and women, take power and agency away from women. Feminism should be intersectional. Not questioning if something is empowerment or not then basing someone's worth on that. If it's what a woman wants to do, if it's consensual, if a woman is feeling confident, why bother commenting? You're not owed an explanation. Women should be free to dress, act, speak however they choose, without others trying to jump down their throat that they need to start acting more of a certain way to not be labeled or perceived in a poor or critical light.

Can I just say that I sympathize with the judge who voted on "Food for Thought" and whoever nominated it...both of whom have also been shamed to a certain extent here.

I’m kind of relieved and less hurt that my fellow PnQers agree that the piece is sexist. I’m glad I wasn’t the only one.

Even though it incredibly infuriated me to read that piece, I sorta wish the author would step up and explain where he comes from, why he thinks the way he does, whether his beliefs are open for criticism or incorrigible. I wish maybe discussion could change the way he views women, sexuality and purity.

Hellon, I’m not sure about you, but personally, I think it is my duty as a woman to call someone out on being sexist and/or supporting sexism. Whoever nominated it/gave it a vote are responsible for that. They have a feature to nominate and judge poems, they shouldn’t have used it to ”honor” a piece that offends and judges people based on their gender.

Yeah, I would also like to hear from Maher.
And, equally, I don’t care if I never hear from him.

The older and less energetic I get, the more my feminism is focussed on supporting and empowering fellow women, and less on centring yet another cishet man’s sexist views in the vain hope he’ll pay a fraction more attention to what I have to say.

Plus, Maher’s “opinion” is unfortunately not at all unique, so we can easily remove him as a person from our discussion, and focus on the issue itself: why is the policing of women’s sexuality so pervasive and entrenched in society, in both men and women?

I’m interested that you mentioned all supportive commenters on the other poem were women, perhaps insinuating this makes its message more viable. So let’s talk internalised misogyny, something shared by all of us who have been socialised by patriarchy.

As you probably know, Hellon, internalised misogyny is an essential way patriarchy co-opts women into doing its dirty work for it, into keeping each other in check, eg sl** shaming, in order to keep us conformed to serving patriarchy.

Women monitoring and diminishing each other’s behaviour is a fantastically forceful way to codify patriarchy as a system: have the oppressed be the upholders of their own oppression. Internalised misogyny relies on the core belief that only a certain singular woman is permitted in a man’s domain and win their approval, so women often view other women (particularly women with power, sexual and otherwise), not men, as hostile competition and barriers to success. This lack of women’s solidarity is a primary driver for the continuation of patriarchy.

All this to say it doesn’t surprise me one single bit that women are championing a man’s horrifyingly sexist poem. But, sadly, their support, which has been conditioned in them since birth, doesn’t qualify the content.

As to your latest post: to me, this discussion is not so much about shaming people, or making it personal at all. We are all victims of patriarchy. This is about trying to understand why this HM was so enraging for some of us, and to highlight how patriarchal beliefs and support systems can be so harmful. Perhaps we can grow from this.

Abby...I love you!!! Where have you been for so long?????

Plus, Maher’s “opinion” is unfortunately not at all unique, so we can easily remove him as a person from our discussion,

^^^^

NO WE CAN'T...I want him to come on and tell us why he thinks this way...so do you, so do the others so please...don't disregard him just yet...

Maher...the podium is yours...

Hi Hellon! I’ve been mumming to a little daughter and son, working as a STEM educator, starting a little side business, and watching a ton of Netflix. How have you been? How are the grandkids?

And, really? Okay then, let’s give this guy a podium. Ha, it never fails to amaze me how strongly we women want to shower men with our attention and concern, good or bad, even when we know we’ll likely receive the same old predictable story we’ve heard all our lives. (Don’t get me wrong, men harbouring dangerous views should be outed where possible, I am speaking more to the idea of needing to listen to them defend themselves.)

Why not instead look critically at why these poems and perceptions tend to be favoured by so many of us in the first place?

Patriarchy is systemic. That means that if we heard from and even managed to convert every single sexist out there, the system itself would still privilege men.

That’s why I feel it’s more important, for women in particular, to look beyond the perpetrators and instead focus our precious energy together to examine the mechanics of the system, rather than have us separate and provide even more platform to individual sexists.

But, Maher, by all means, go ahead. I didn’t want to make this about you, but people are insisting.

I do think there is a cultural and religious divide here that can't be easily bridged. Abbey pointed out that it isn't Maher but a more general problem. Like it or not, there are still some cultures/religions that view all the above mentioned behaviours by women as less than ladylike, to put it as politely as I can.
To the typical member of our little group, his poem is unacceptable and the views he expresses have no place in the 21st century. I am one of those members, I should point out. But as frustrating as it may be, we have to acknowledge that there are still many people in the world - whole countries in fact - that hold these opinions as gospel, quite literally at times. I'm not saying those opinions need to be respected, but they do have to be understood in regards to history/teachings and lack of education regarding this matter. Feminism is a very slow turning steel ship that is taking many years to reach all corners of the world, so we have to try and understand why some people are still so in the dark without ridiculing them personally so openly. It is the problem that needs addressing, as Abbey alludes to - not the individual.

Just as an afterthought, one opinion - however seemingly flawed - does not condemn a person to the bowels of hell. I have had many dealings with Maher and he has repeatedly shown himself to be sensitive, understanding, generous and caring with numerous issues. Yes, perhaps he has this wrong, but I'm not sure that means he deserves hostility on a public forum, which he has received at times. We are all products of our upbringing and education, for better or worse. Let's learn and teach rather than criticise and ridicule on these open forums. The opinion deserves that, the man himself doesn't, I am sure.

Oh gosh, Ben, it’s always awkward when someone is agreeing with me but I’m not agreeing with them.

You indicate that you live in a more advanced culture/country where sexist behaviours don’t exist nearly as much. I live in Australia and, in my state alone, reports of rape and sexual assault have more than doubled over the past 10 years, while the convictions for those crimes have actually lowered. 1 in 5 women (actually much higher) over age 15 experience sexual assault. One woman is murdered every week in Australia (and very low population here) by her own partner or ex. That’s just a few women’s safety stats, I’m not even touching on women’s economic, health, legal, political, labour issues.

I just think it’s disrespectful and ignorant to point fingers at other cultures and imply that we needn’t be similarly worried about ourselves. We are ALL in a position to identify and condemn sexism anywhere, because we all live in a world where every system of power is built by men to favour men. And, yes, most often those men are very nice, so very nice indeed. But wouldn’t it also be nice if they, with the duty of their privilege, take a little more accountability when their inherent misogyny is exposed, instead of remain protected by patriarchy? I think it would.

I'm pointing fingers at no one, Abbey, so please don't level that at me to make a cheap point. My argument is that expectations vary between cultures and that 'inherent misogyny ' is simply not a concept in some let alone acknowledging it once it is exposed as you put it.
My point stands, and I was never rude or disrespectful to anyone: more understanding needs to be shown on all sides.

Okay, Ben, sure. Have a nice day, champ!

And you, Abbey.

Some of my closest friends are Muslim, and they do not have this r/incel attitude about women. I also know plenty of white, Christian Americans who are extremely sexist. Anecdotal argument, yes, so let us consider Maher specifically. He is intelligent and has access to the internet. He doesn’t have the excuse of ignorance, except chosen ignorance, which is no excuse at all. His contempt for female sexuality is indefensible.

I’m relieved Abby brought up internalized misogyny because I read those comments before Hellon brought them up, and that was my immediate thought: Here is an example of women condemning other women for their sexual freedom. Women are fundamental in upholding their own oppression.

I completely disagree with these assertions that we need to protect the feelings of Maher, the commenters on his "poem," the person who nominated his "poem," or the judge who voted on his "poem." What about my feelings as a woman reading his words? Reading the comments? Seeing his words nominated? Seeing them honored? I feel degraded, frustrated, and disappointed by all of this, and I’m not the only one. Yet some of you think that we who are insulted should be gentle with those who insult us? We should keep our upset private to protect Maher’s feelings? We should not shame the s***-shamers? No. It’s a public "poem." It’s receiving a public response. That is fair, and it is just. I am concerned only with giving a voice to girls and women who are hurt by sexism, not protecting the voice of a person who is sexist, or secondary participants in sexism.

But Jane, what is oppression to you is not necessarily oppression to other women. You cannot so completely disregard another person's opinion as wrong or sexist. There are plently of women that I know who are all for sexual liberation in all it's many forms, and there are an equal number who think sticking a thong on and twerking in a music video is the real degradation. You are allowed your opinion but you do not have the right to so entirety disregard other women's opinions as wrong and oppressive. What on earth happened to freedom of speech and opinion?
I have said my piece and really do see and understand all sides. I have a daughter on this site these days and am acutely aware of how things can turn, so I will, with the greatest respect to all, leave it there.

If you are against female sexual liberation, your view is sexist and oppressive. Yes, thanks, that’s exactly what I’m saying, and thank you for clarifying where you really stand. I read you loud and clear.

When did discussion and difference of opinion become so damn aggressive, Jane?

Take care.

This seems like a good time for a quote. Maybe a quote from a man would be better received by those of you still struggling to understand why it's unacceptable for you to choose "neutrality" or "see both sides" when one side is sexist and one side is fighting against sexism. Calling this "difference of opinion" and therefore deserving of respect is absurd. That's the paradox of tolerance, please look it up.

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." –Bishop Desmond Tutu.

I do not appreciate your neutrality. We aren't debating pizza toppings; we are debating sexual double standards. Female sexuality. The policing of women's bodies.

There are certain things that aren't just a 'difference of opinion'. This is one of them. Also to touch on your point about, countries and cultures still holding sexist views and not doing enough for women's rights, sure a little understanding of history is required, but you can, and should call them out. I grew up in a South Asian household, and I can quite clearly state that there is a patriarchal system in place, and just because it's been like that for ages, doesn't mean it should remain the norm. You call it out, and fight it. This isn't a simply 'difference of opinions', we're literally talking about views that have systematically oppressed women for ages. Not to mention, the ideology in Maher's poems has enabled violence against woman, whether it being men perpetrating them, or people turning a blind eye.

I appreciate you, Mark. Thanks to all of you who have spoken up -- Noura, Abby, Jordan, MA, Mark. Like Noura said: It helps.

What a woman wears or how she dances or where she dances is not the debate. Its the human mind that twists it as such that is the problem. As Maher stated its not a poem but a discussion between a coworker. This bothers me in many ways, on many things - but lets remain and state the obvious it is not a poem... I dont however feel Mauher should step up to say anything- He stated its not a poem and hes not on trial.

I won't claim that I was shocked or hurt by Maher's poem, not because I am a Muslim, as some might think, but rather because the debate between Maher and his co-worker did not come as a surprise AT ALL. I heard such phrases enough that I don't blink anymore. I wasn't raised in a [Islamic] country and those debates about what a decent woman is are soooo many and common that I've heard them from previous co-workers myself and colleagues who are not necessarily Muslims but rather conservative. I have Muslim, Christian, and Druze friends who share those controversial thoughts about women if I shall describe them as so. Most of them come from people raised in conservative families, despite their religion. Believe it or not, what is considered a "sin" is common in most religions! Misconceptions are so common too in the mindset of people who follow different religions. A conservative Jew, Christian, or Muslim could shame a woman for having sex before marriage and say she committed a major sin. Another Jew, Christian, Muslim, or non-believer could simply mind their own business and disregard the whole thing and say: It's her choice.

I have friends and family members who disregard these thoughts as baseless and stupid. For me, this is as equally absurd as those who believe Hijabis and devotees are oppressed women living in the stone age. I have heard comments and stupid questions about women covering their bodies that are as sexist as this topic is...my only reaction would be How about, leave us, women, alone?

The main issue isn't just about if women who go clubbing and are engaged in sexual activities or make love before marriage and have met many men in their life are filthy, deserve shame, or are slaves. It's this horrible AND dangerous problem facing the WHOLE world about dictating women how to look, what to wear, and what to do with their bodies. How different is this issue from that of shaming and banning women from wearing a scarf? This happens in my country, I live in the Middle East, not in Europe, and women who wear scarves are often banned from entering public beaches because some people are offended by a piece of fabric. It goes both ways. If you believe people who look different and have different beliefs than you are oppressed and undeveloped, then you are no better than those who believe women who don't look like those coming from your environment are disgraceful.

Maher's co-worker is as sexist as the debate went. I won't say the debate is so fragile that Maher did not choose his words and replies wisely, but I do understand what kind of debate took place and how it escalated as I hear those comments a lot. My father's family comes from a communist background and holds no religious principles, my closest cousin is an atheist and we live in the same area and same environment where my other cousins are also Muslims. I know many family members and friends who just think like Maher and I know many who don't. Thank you Jane for stressing that this has nothing to do with what religion or where you come from culturally...this is global, because people who share these beliefs aren't ignorant, they might be successful people who simply hold "ignorant beliefs." The scale differs from one country to the other, it's not realistic to say otherwise. But this is a global issue mainly and isn't restricted to certain cultures. It just comes in different forms that differ from one place to the other. Some places are loud in stating such beliefs, while others act upon it silently...resulting in sexual assaults, rape, and similar crimes that are on the rise in countries that claim to respect women's freedoms.

It's 2021 and we are way far from so-called democracy and coexistence. I won't shame Maher for how he defended himself after his co-worker told him he oppresses women, and if he or the judge were trying to refer to this issue by expanding on the objectification of women in the world of marketing and business and how this world still objectifies women in many ways, if that was the case, then it was an unsuccessful attempt, it's a broad topic that needs wise defense.

I will simply finish by stating how I believe things should be: If you are a Muslim, Christian, Jew, or Durzi devotee who believe sex before marriage is a sin and women and men need to respect certain red lines during their life, perfectly cool, then go do it yourself. You are not ignorant but make sure you don't judge people based on your beliefs. Do what you believe in without imposing your religion and your standards on others. It's dangerous. If you want to go naked, go ahead, but don't underestimate those who choose a different lifestyle. Stop asking women to wear or take off clothes and stop lecturing people on how they should live. Accept this or not, it is not about religion, it's a sexist and racist world. And here I will quote Jane:" Evidence suggests repeatedly that women are harassed, catcalled, assaulted, and raped regardless of what clothes they wear." ?

I do agree, that Maher’s writing shouldn’t been highlighted. But there’s one more thing Ishould be pointed out, “our women” “they choose modesty” part. To me this misrepresented Islam, women aren’t the only ones who choose modesty, it includes the men and how they behave too. Especially how they treat women!

I’m a muslim woman in my twenties, l hate judgement in whatever form it is, and I believe when a person becomes an adult they should be accounted and responsible for how they behave. Just because we dont do something or do it differently doesn’t give me or anyone the right to point it out and judge it.

I’m here in P&Q to do something I love without being judged. So I was reluctant whether I post my opinion or not.I didnt want to get involved, but I had to make one thing clear, dont generalize the cultures and countries (I’m not saying this is the case everywhere). But just because muslim women act or dress differently doesnt make us oppressed, nor does it mean we dont have rights.

I’m not against anything and I completely respect the differences in people with no judgement. I am though against sexism and racism. So as we all agree we can wear anything, whether it’s a bikini or a hijab, and do whatever we want !

"Thank you Jane for stressing that this has nothing to do with what religion or where you come from culturally...this is global, because people who share these beliefs aren't ignorant, they might be successful people who simply hold "ignorant beliefs.""

The credit should go to Abby because she spoke to this more thoroughly than I did, but I agree wholeheartedly with her post, and with you on this subject. Maher's sexist views on female sexuality exist in every creed and culture, and sexism is a global issue. To lump creeds, cultures, or countries into a category of ignorance is in itself ignorant, not to mention xenophobic.

"It's this horrible AND dangerous problem facing the WHOLE world about dictating women how to look, what to wear, and what to do with their bodies. How different is this issue from that of shaming and banning women from wearing a scarf?"

Exactly. Either way, this is policing women's bodies. I don't support it. I want to live in a world where a woman can wear what she chooses to wear, and it won't unjustly reflect on her morality or character. Star hit upon this as well. "So as we all agree we can wear anything, whether it’s a bikini or a hijab, and do whatever we want !" Yes!

Andrea said, "What a woman wears or how she dances or where she dances is not the debate. Its the human mind that twists it as such that is the problem." Absolutely!

Oh, Ben, do we really have to discuss the difference between an opinion and an insult?

“I like to wear hijab, and I don’t like to have sex before marriage.” = free speech.
“Women who don’t wear hijabs, and have one night stands are s***s.” = hate speech.

I’m not trying to make this about me. I’ll just echo what Mark said. I live in the Middle East myself. I experience all kinds of sexism wherever I go. At work, down the streets, at grocery stores - just everywhere. Do I chicken out and meekly hold my tongue? Nah, I flat out tell a sexist that they’re sexist. I simply don’t care if being horrible and descending to women is part of their culture/belief/tradition.

If my religion or culture dictated that I must eat birds alive, and I did, wouldn’t I still be a monster? Yeah, I would. So the religion excuse is not valid, sorry. Try another one.