Ben Pickard

Where’d he go?!

Ben decided to leave PnQ for personal reasons. Please refer to this thread if you would like to know more:
https://www.poems-and-quotes.com/threads/147622

Thank you Larry for sharing that post. To say I'm horrified is to put it mildly. I've been off site for a while so this is the first time I have seen the thread.

In a nutshell.

A sexist poem (not Ben's) slipped through the moderators usually robust procedure for spotting and removal. Was unfortunately nominated and badly judged worthy of a HM.

What ensued was a huge outpouring of outrage that quickly escalated into personal attacks and a baying for blood that seemed reminiscent of a mob stoning event that caught some of our oldest members in the cross fire.

As a result this thread has lost P&Q at least two of its best poets and I feel sure a great many more. ?

It's not ok to be sexist, racist or to behave badly to others but when you launch a personal attack on someone online (for whatever reason) it is considered bullying and the perpetrator immediately lose all justification for doing so because bullying is just as bad as sexism and racism.

Lessons need to be learned from this because if they or not then very few people will want to remain or join this community.

Reading through the thread, and truly listening to those who voiced their concerns, those who educated and share valuable knowledgeable, it's pretty clear that it did not turn into a bloodbath as you suggest. Key thoughts and assumptions were pointed out and as stated several times, it was the beliefs behind it, not the person or poem itself.

It's not bullying to call out sexism or any kind of sexist remark (even if supposedly done in jest). Not calling out problematic behavior and instead pinpointing everything that transpired as a personal attack on someone is a refusal to learn. Thinking we should all coexist peacefully and spew sunshine and rainbows is plain ignorance in my opinion and reeks of toxic positivity.

Feelings will be hurt in learning how to be better. We shouldn't have to step on eggshells when explaining WHY something is not okay or why defending someone when it wasn't even about them in the first place just takes away from the pivotal discussion.

To me it started off quite reasonably highlighting the offensive sexist nature of the poem but the more I read the more uncomfortable I felt as I could see it was quickly becoming a personal attack that went on to rebound unfairly onto other members of the group resulting in at least two leaving the site.

If a debate in a physical room gets out of hand and gets personal , it's not right, it's upsetting but at least everyone can physically see and hear each other and judge the level of upset they are causing and adjust their behaviour accordingly so that it doesn't spiral out into a personal attack

(When debating if the debater has no better arguement than to revert to a personal attack then he has already lost the debate)

Alone at a computer you have never met your opponents or your supporters but it's a huge shock to log on and find a barrage of complaints and personal attacks directed at you all assuming the worst and theres no telling how many people have seen it or will read it in the future. It will remain an indefinite reminder of the personal attack on you as a person

So whilst I agree with some of what you have said I am very concerned about the very thin line between a healthy debate and personal attacking. So I stand firm in my opinion that it's ok to raise awareness of something that you feel us wrong and even enter into a healthy debate but the minute the dialogue turns into a personal attack in a public forum it is no longer acceptable behaviour because the dimensions change and it becomes bullying.

I’d like you to quote for me the exact personal attacks that were aimed towards Pickard. And I’d be very pleased to show you the way he belittled/insulted/mocked/thrown sexist jokes at me and one of the most respected women on this site.

I am saddened by how degraded and toxic this site has become. The goals used to be to be about supporting each other and constructive criticism. I don't want to be a part of name calling, bullying and mudslinging. So I will remove myself from this aspect of the site for the moment at least. I will miss those people who helped me write better poetry and the friends I have made on this sites and will carry with me the fond memories of how the site used to be.

Yeah, alright, I’m touched, but you couldn’t answer my question, I guess.

Also, no matter how heartless you (or anyone) would think I am, I would never support or help or befriend a sexist or a racist. Sorry that saddens you.

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You disgusting, horrible people. Dad is NOT a sexist. Right from the start all he did was try to understand something and point out what might have led to the anger and right from the start he was sniped at. what he said to Jane was wrong, but its been twisted on purpose to suit your needs. he didn't mean he thought the idea of women keeping names was wrong - he doesnt. he meant it like 'can you imagine, you'll be doing THAT nxt'. even now he's gone, your judging him and commneting on him - what is wrong with you? just leave him alone PLEASE. you don't know him and this has become so much more than he ever deserved. Hes NOT sexist so stop calling him that. I loved this site,but now it has become malignant and I won't be back

Hey, Ben. Good to see ya back. Haven‘t been told to “keep my head outta my arse” for quite some time.

Noura...are you implying that Keira and Ben are one and the same member?

They’re mysteriously both gone, so we’ll never know. But they do share the same temper and tendency to insult. Sad.

I still have to give props to Ben for inspiring me to write a ‘How to Spot a Sexist’ handbook one day. It’s mad how catchy it is. Salute.

Hey, Ben. Good to see ya back. Haven’t been told to “keep my head outta my arse” for quite some time.

^ Noura, is the mocking really necessary?

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Abracadabra, I’m unsure as to how to interpret your comment to Ben, but I interpreted it as a way of mocking too. Is it necessary? Edit ( or are you being sincere and really mean it without any sense of sarcasm or ridicule?)

“Noura, is the mocking really necessary?”

I’m not mean, alright. But won’t take nonsense and insults. Their posts are too dramatic for a poetry website, for crying out loud.

Did you read Rayven (edit: I just edited the name) comment before he updated it?

I’m glad he updated it. I was going to ask for him to delete it.

You know, I’m here scratching my head trying to understand the situation and trying to find the words to explain how I’m feeling about all that has happened.

For one I’m concerned that a girl had to read the responses given to her dad. I know you are implying they are the same individual but to me it doesn’t seem like that. This is just bad.

Second, I don’t think Ben is a sexist. He might have some sexist views but so do I. For instance, have you ever heard a man say that women can’t drive. Jesus Christ.. I agree with that for the most part. (Me being one. I mean I can drive but the parallel driving… ) on the other hand, I have seen woman who can drive even those big trucks. My jaw drops, big respect towards them. My point is, when I hear someone say women can’t drive, I can’t help but find it funny and agree with that. Am supposed to be labeled a sexist just because of that?

I'm saddened that both Ben and his daughter have left the site. Any poets leaving is a loss especially when they are excellent poets.

Do I think Ben is sexist.. no I don't. He made an inappropriate comment in a sexist thread that inflamed the situation, that was unfortunate but not his intent I think

There have also been some inappropriate comments and assumptions made in this thread that have again inflamed the situation..

Time to move on people

Noura, Are you saying that the only ones insulted were you and Jane????? I disagree... read that damn thread again.

I agree with Milly and Nicko- Let it go.

I asked someone before, and I’m asking you now, to quote for me the things I said in the original thread that were offensive. They didn’t.

Yes, I agree, let it go, but not when someone is trying to make me feel guilty about defending myself. Cos I won’t be feeling one bit of guilt. Leaving was his choice.

And I wasn’t the one who stirred this up again.

Now I’ll let it go.

I grew up in the 1950-60's in the southern USA. It has taken all my life so far, and likely the rest of my life, to discover and weed out the latent racism and sexism ingrained in my psyche.

Once I was with my wife and our friend and I used a common idiom to comment about a mutual acquaintance: "he's big and ugly enough to deal with it." The fellow I was referring to was actually quite large and I may have unconsciously chosen my words accordingly. Immediately our friend, Evy, called me out on it. I was horrified that my words were taken "wrong" but before I could respond in protest I was struck by the realization that they were not taken wrong at all - I was callously denigrating the man. Feelings of shame and regret washed over me.

Everyone born into this society is saddled with the sins of intolerance into which we have very little insight unless aided by others. I know that the poem which originated this wave of threads was sexist. At the time I read it I was uncomfortable with it but did not see it for its true self. Had it not been brought out I may have let it go. I am grateful for the chance to rid one more instance of complacency. Now the difficult part is translating that understanding to more real-life occurrences.

I would really appreciate it if people didn't use my dead name on here anymore. I am not the same person i was and i am healing from my past.

Larry asked me to delete my post because of the diagnostic approach i took which in turn i apologize for. I am going to start working on comments and writing again. I love this site and i really want to see it thrive again.

This is what I meant when I said in the other thread that we are not ready to talk about sexism/racism because that puts us in a very vulnerable spot.

Intentions are easily misinterpreted.

Me writing and stating why for me Ben is a not sexist was a result of attempting to answer Noura’s comment. (I did not do a good job)

“I’m not mean, alright. But won’t take nonsense and insults. Their posts are too dramatic for a poetry website, for crying out loud.”

Noura, I do not find their post too dramatic. I read their post and I feel frustration coming from their words. I feel them trying to express themselves without being successful. Ben’s intention was to try to bring unity but his intention was misinterpreted to attempting to defend sexism and you know the rest. He wasn’t successful. Your intentions were to highlight that there was sexism in that piece. But your initial comment wasn’t clear as to what you wanted and could be misinterpreted as - either you wanted the poem to be deleted it, put someone on trial, blame the judges, make someone feel guilty, or educate the public, or something else…

Anyways, I wish that thread may have shifted towards finding strong arguments to combat sexism and add unity within the community instead of how to spot a sexist and add division in the community.

Like I said in the other thread, I’m not interested in blaming anyone. Unfortunately, I’m unable to express my thoughts without going back to what happened in the Weekly thread. So, I’ll just take Nicko’s and Maple’s advice and move on.

As far as Ben, if you are reading this, I hope you are doing well. I know it was your decision to leave the site. I’m not blaming anyone. Just wanted to let you know that I do not think of you as a sexist.

Mr. Larry, thank you for opening up and adding valuable information. I really appreciate it.

Rayven, fair enough. I won’t address you with the name I met you. I’ll edit my comment to replace your name.

By the way, I am an aunt again! Sis had my nephew yesterday.

Absolutely agree with Nicko.

Also, Rayven, thank you for understanding that the diagnosis part was inappropriate. Very considerate of you.

Actually, I do hope that Ben comes back. This was never about him and shouldn't be. Things escalated dramatically as a result of going back and forth. Although his decision was the result of the heated discussion, which I believe as Nicko said, was stirred by inappropriate comments and assumptions..but I do wish it didn't end up that way. Personally, I didn't want him to feel that he's welcome to leave. We were all angry and we all express and control our anger differently. However, I don't think there was a permanent damage caused by the issue. So maybe if Ben feels better at some point he would consider joining the site again. Many of us left and came back at some point...

Not trying to be a perfectionist here but it's really tough to hold a debate or a discussion or to make a valid point behind screens, it's very easy to fuel a debate too, and to get provoked. Anyway, it's no longer appropriate to address Ben since he's not here to answer for himself. Anything related to the subject should only be ideas/suggestions to enhance the system.

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Congrats Luce ! Awesome happy news !

Really liked your reflection, Larry.

Even if, let's say, we come from an extremely progressive background and keep updated about how to address and understand social issues, of course we can still hold prejudiced thoughts. I'm from the Midwest, and grew up in a religious and conservative family/small town. So while I realize my background may help explain thought processes, it doesn't excuse any past or present behavior. I STILL deal with internalized homophobia and I'm queer. In the past, I've pushed away friends and criticized others verbally and in my own head all because I didn't understand myself. Even though it may have been ignorance in some cases, I can't erase the fact that I hurt people (both people in my daily life and strangers on the Internet).

I know people who are very neighborly, people who would share everything they have, but it's only been in the past few years I've distanced myself from them due to what they believe and who they choose to continually support. They had always been kind to me, always, but were vocal about other things that never sat right. Sure, when visiting, we could talk about silly or mundane subjects, as I knew they were trying to be polite and never bring up political issues. But that's when it started to hit me that we were never having important conversations, and even though politics is embedded in almost every aspect of our lives, too many people were claiming it was a simple "difference of opinion" in regards to human rights. It can be an incredibly personal and hard feat to evaluate relationships when realizing that just because someone is nice to you and does good for other people, it doesn't mean they don't have things they need to learn from too. Just because they, and myself, are not actively condoning or participating in problematic events or blatantly using hate speech or slurs in public, doesn't mean that we're exempt from change or that our thoughts aren't seeping into behavior by accident and we're "inactively" contributing to a problem.

It's like the first step is in realizing what not to do or say, then trying to see the prevalence of racism and sexism, then going even further to understand the nuances of it. The microaggressions. Do we comment on someone's hair or attire without realizing it's their culture? Do we have outdated and wrong concepts about certain countries that changes how we value or treat people, even indirectly? Do we hold on to stereotypes that harm other people?

I think so much of this can happen subconsciously, and it's up to us to be open to critique, self-awareness, and checking ourselves whenever we can, as well as friends if possible.

What a sad, small life we’d lead if we only did things out of necessity, Everlasting. ‘How to Spot a Sexist’ is legit a snappy title, and it would clearly contain important info. It could well be the title of a new thread, if not handbook, and I wanted to acknowledge Ben for it, however bitter he was about it.

I wonder how many sexist views a person needs to have to be thought of as a sexist around here? We do realise that sexism is constantly reinforced by “just one inappropriate comment”, “just my opinion”, “aw ladies, let’s stay neutral”, “haha mate, don’t get her riled up”, “I’m not a sexist, how dare you say so” etc, right?

Far more important than defending ourself or someone else against being accused of sexism (sexism is a completely common and unsurprising phenomenon), is to see how we position ourselves as allies when we are called out. Like MA and Larry have mentioned here, how do we put our egos aside and listen to those who have worked, probably for much of their lives, to understand and study and dismantle self and systemic misogyny and are now trying to convey that information to us? That’s why, along with my ‘how to spot a sexist’ list, I had provided a ‘how to spot an ally’ list.

The latter holds a much greater insight into how against sexism a person genuinely and actively is. People claiming they are ‘not a sexist’ by remaining passive and neutral (or defensive) usually contribute very little against sexism.

I've been in Belize for 8 days, so I'm just now catching up.

"My point is, when I hear someone say women can’t drive, I can’t help but find it funny and agree with that. Am supposed to be labeled a sexist just because of that?"

Yeah, that's sexist. That women are "bad drivers" is not only a sexist stereotype; it's patently false. Non-anecdotal evidence suggests women are significantly better drivers than men. Everyone: Please take at least a minute to look up statistics and controlled experiments (google scholar is a great resource) before buying into stereotypes.

"Do I think Ben is sexist.. no I don't. He made an inappropriate comment in a sexist thread that inflamed the situation, that was unfortunate but not his intent I think"

Let's not get hung up on "can we label him a sexist, or not?" What he said was sexist, and it was inappropriate because it was sexist.

Ben is no longer here and I feel uncomfortable continuing to discuss him, and so I will instead now address those defending this type of behavior. Many people are much too fragile when discussing sexism because of their overwhelming fear of being labeled a sexist. It's as if being labeled a sexist is somehow far worse than sexism itself. EDIT: I like what Abby wrote, and agree with her.

Larry, I would quote your entire post if I could because it is filled with so much wisdom, humility, self-awareness, and competency. On the first day of my masters program, students were tasked (by our professor of structural oppression) to write a 10 page essay on all the ways that we are racist and sexist. If we shied away from the subject or tried to claim we're completely free of either, we had to resubmit our paper (as many times as it took). The reality is that we're all victims of sociocultural influence -- tradition, TV, movies, newspapers, comics, advertisements, jokes, novels, etc. Fighting against sexism and racism must include fighting against it within ourselves because these implicit thoughts and feelings are deeply embedded in any of us who did not grow up in a vacuum.

oops! Sorry...posted this in the wrong thread.

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