Freedom

Wanted to start off by saying I believe in freedom and equality for all. I’m a U.S. soldier and that is just part of who I am. I have been with my wife for 14 years, and have 3 beautiful daughters. I was also raised in a broken home by a mother who could not break a cycle of domestic violence. Well, lived with my mother, my grandmother raised me. About the only thing I’m against is abortion, but that’s for personal reasons; my mother had 11 abortions before I was born. I was a failed abortion. I would have been devastated had my wife exercised her right to choose, knowing there was literally nothing I could do. But that is a personal belief and I would never force it on anyone. I wouldn’t even vote on it on the chance one of my daughters one day wanted an abortion.

At the risk of reopening old wounds, I just wanted to bring up Maher’s HM from a while back. I didn’t have a chance to read it but judging from the fallout it was not received well. I don’t believe the situation was handled appropriately, and we lost members of the community because of it.

Maybe I am naive, or maybe I am just hopeful but I like to believe we are moving towards a world where we can discuss things without hostility. There were a lot of raw emotions and the comments in that weeks winner thread definitely showed that. Some people came in hot from the get go, calling him (Maher) a sexist, insulting his bedroom performance, even his education. It’s not right.

This is a public forum, with comments and likes, and votes… the whole shabang. This is also a place of sharing. A place where Aries Rising taught me how to write a Rondeau, where Ben gave me pointers on sonnets, where Hellon got me to write something that didn’t rhyme for once. A place where I lost sleep at a PnQ ball spitballing a collaboration with poets around the world. A place where I talked to a troubled teen about cutting and suicidal thoughts because I’ve been there. This is something that could have been addressed privately between you and the author, or with the moderator account.

Instead it snowballed into passive aggressive statements, then all out name calling. We don’t know each other’s story. There may be victims of sexual abuse that read Maher’s story and were triggered and will never log on again that we don’t even know about. Conversely Maher could have felt like a complete scumbag after being teamed up on in a public forum and slit his wrists. I had a private attempt kill himself in basic training because he was ridiculed in a similar fashion by his fellow trainees. It can happen.

I understand taking a stand for what you believe in, more than most given my profession, and I will always support that. In America we have a freedom of speech, even if that speech is hateful. I support the freedom even if I don’t agree with what is being said.

There was a quote about an elephant standing on a mouses tail, and choosing neutrality is choosing the the side of the elephant. As a soldier, my responsibility is to inform the elephant he is on the mouse’s tail, and move him if he doesn’t move. That is neutrality. Now if the elephant was actively trying to stomp the mouse to death, shooting one to death is choosing a side. From my perspective, it does seem like Maher was the mouse. He was the one being stepped on in a very public way, and an overwhelming number of people were siding with the elephant.

I realize that the elephant was used to represent an oppressive status quo and that the mouse was rights, but Maher’s right to freedom of expression was also being called into question.

I am by no means religious, in fact I am actively NOT religious. I believe churches should pay taxes and their good works and donations should be write offs as a non profit organization when they file their taxes. I also believe military chaplains are a violation of the separation between church and state but that is neither here nor there. I would never call someone uneducated because of their beliefs. Believing in miracles that are scientifically impossible is not ignorance, it’s faith. I understand that even if I don’t have it. I understand that just because something isn’t real for me doesn’t mean it isn’t real to someone else. Insulting someone’s beliefs or culture of modesty by calling it uneducated is just wrong.

So is using religion as an excuse to condemn, especially when that religion preaches mercy, acceptance, “judgment is mine says the lord,” or “he who is without sin cast the first stone.” I never said I didn’t know the Bible, just that I didn’t believe in it, my Grandmother witnesses to me every chance she gets.

What I *AM* saying is we as a community need to see our differences, even if we don’t agree with them, and accept them. Not force our views on anyone.

EDIT

Parting thoughts (for now)

My heart goes out to the women in Australia, I truly did not know violence against women was that bad in your country. By all means speak out! Silence doesn’t spark change. But know that your situation is not everyone’s situation, and that this forum isn’t the forum that will spark the kind of change you want.

NOURAYASMINE!!! We should talk as well sometime!!! I just wanted to say I could feel that your intentions were good, and I was not surprised at all by your reaction. Where in Syria are you from (PM please)? I hope you are well.

Ben, I saw what you were trying to do, and I also saw the exact moment you lost your temper. I do hope you and your daughter come back to the site, I so enjoyed the sonnets.

Maher, while I do not agree with the content of some of your writing, neither do I agree with some of the comments that were leveled your way. You need to understand that while you may not have meant to offend anyone, you did. Your beliefs are not a shield for you to pass judgment from behind. Know that writing your views about what constitutes a “good woman” is going to piss off a lot of women. You can’t condemn those that don’t share your views, and if you do you can’t be surprised by the backlash. I saw your comment on my recent post. Do not think you’ve found an ally simply because in this instance I came to your defense, I just don’t like to see people getting ganged up on.

Hi Anthony,

I appreciate your post and think it's fair. I wasn't looking for any allies as I'm not one to look to cause any division. There's enough of that going on in this world and I'd rather not be someone who contributes to it. That being said, I didn't leave that comment meaning that there are any sides to be taken here, I was just agreeing that things here have changed is all. I liked the way you wrote your piece, re-read it a few times and found myself agreeing with you, that's all :)

I also don't use my faith as any sort of shield. I too come from a 'traditional' home. My mother worked most her life, as did my father. They're both older now and us kids look after them as best we can. My ex wife worked when we were first married, but her job was stressful and she decided she wanted to stay home, so I supported her and provided as best I could. She was great with art and making greeting cards and the like, so she wanted to give that a shot. We tried to get a little business going for her, but didn't work out unfortunately. Apparently the greeting card industry here is pretty fierce. But such is life, things sometimes just don't work out and we parted - no ill feelings between us thankfully.

I'm open to criticism, as you said that's a great thing that public forums provide, but not in the way it went down here. I explained the whole context of it, but was told that my reaction of words was worse than being physically sexually assaulted at work. Though I don't agree, I still try to see it from that side of things. Hell, I even showed the whole thread and the post to my friend who it was about and she laughed for a good while, so at least I know she doesn't think I'm sexist and that's the girl herself. She said that laugh made her day, so I'm glad there lol. Her neighbour unfortunately hurt her cat while reversing out of her driveway, so she was down because of that. Cat is doing fine now though.

Rania was kind enough to dialog with me in a more pleasant way and I agreed with her and removed that post right away, so it's not like I have some sort of agenda going on. I learned a lot from her take on the situation and can say I'm a bit of a better person now because of it, so thank you. But I will say that flinging labels at people, especially when you don't know them or have never even spoken to them before, isn't the best way to go about things.
There will always be people who just simply have different views because of a huge amount of variables in their life that would have shaped that. I'm talking views on any subject. I personally don't expect people to accept what I believe, nor do I try to enforce it on people. I find that to be wrong, just as when I hear people say that 'women can't be sexist'. I definitely disagree as I have a neighbour just 2 houses down that literally gets abused by his wife, physically, emotionally and mentally. I hear her from my bedroom. He's in his mid 40's and talking to the guy is heartbreaking, but he needs someone who will listen because not many do, including the local authorities. Those labels would weigh a ton to someone like him.

I understand we all have our differences in beliefs, etc, and our rationalisations for them and I respect that. Personally, when I read other people's work on here, I drop my beliefs and try to see where that person is coming from. If I were to look at everything through my own system of beliefs/opinions, everything would read the same to me. If something sticks out, I usually message the author to get more insight or I'll maybe leave a comment so as not to apply my own assumption as to what the author intended to mean. I've come across many posts on here over the years that could be considered pretty offensive, but I've never gone on to label anyone for them. I reached out to ask about the piece to understand the story more. If I got a response, awesome. If not, well sucks for me because I really wanted to learn something.

But if there is a silver lining to all this, it did bring some issues to light and I take lessons where I can. I would love to see Ben come back as I always enjoyed his poetry and he also taught me quite a bit about writing over the years.

Hey, Anthony!

I am the woman who called out the writer, the nominator and the judge who HMed the sexist poem. I still stand by what I previously stated: No “hateful” comments were made, no vulgar language was used, no insult was thrown... not by me, nor by my fellow poets who agreed on the sexist and offensive nature of the “poem”. Quite the opposite, actually. Some of my friends were offended and called names, yet they handled it exceptionally well.

I HAD no problem with the writer. I didn’t know him, we may have never talked before. Nevertheless, after reading many things written by him, I kinda wish he didn’t look down on women that awfully. It’s not healthy.

I will never be ashamed to call a sexist out. I’m sorry if being called a sexist hurt the sexist’s feelings. Imagine how reading his sexist poem made us, the women on PnQ, feel.

I’ll leave you with a poem that hopefully can explain why I feel how I feel about the mentioned PnQ member.

https://www.poems-and-quotes.com/poems/1262369

Hi Noura,

That poem was written in response to an actual event where I was physically attacked specifically for my faith when fishing at an area about an hour and a half south of where I live. My friends and I, some of whom had darker skin but are not of the same faith, had things thrown at us, were called very racist and vile things and were outright abused until we had to leave. So yes, I was quite angry when I wrote that after the group of both men and women there completely ridiculed our races, cultures and religions.

They made very derogatory comments about women, calling them letterboxes, wh*ores, terrorists...the list goes too far to count. They chanted anti-God/Religion slogans at us until we left, the ladies with them flashed us and made sexual gestures at us and even walked after our cars that way until we drove out of the car park after having beer bottles thrown at us and our cars - thankfully, nobody was hurt too bad. There were younger ladies in their group - looked around 16ish - also making very sexually explicit gestures specifically to instigate a confrontation. All this started because it came time for 2 of us to pray, so we tried to pick the most out of view spot we could to quickly do that. My friend and I were the only Muslims there - we had a couple of Christians and an Agnostic friend who travelled a further hour to meet us there. Unfortunately, we were spotted and told to "go back to our countries", even though myself and most of the group were born here. So yeah, I was angry and vented with an explicit poem on the explicit section of this site. 4 women commented on that poem and they understood what the go was with it - you're free to read what they said - none thought of me as a sexist because they understood this was a retaliatory piece to vent.

I appreciate you looking into my posts and finding whatever you can to further label me and you're free to do so. I respect that you're speaking out on what you believe is right. However, you don't know me as a person, nor have you ever tried to, so I'm honestly not too bothered. Again, context is everything. I don't go judging a person based on a post, because I don't know them or what happened to them to trigger such a thing. The fact that you're actively going through my history trying to find "evidence" that I am a sexist is interesting to me. I suggest you maybe ask the women who commented on their opinion, even though this was 3yrs back.

Edit:

The reference to the men mistreating their wives comes from the guys who were in their group of about 15 or so letting their girlfriends/wives (not sure) push my friends around while the guys called my friends "wife beaters" and saying things like "do it, we'll knock you all the F out bloody wogs" in reference to my friends defending themselves from being hit and shoved around. 'Wogs' is a derogatory/racist term used here for basically anyone who isn't "Aussie" or who looks ethnic. Most people here are nothing like this, but unfortunately, this group was.

The reference to the kids being raised badly was from when the parents outright told them to chase our cars, pour beer over the spot we prayed on and 2 of the teenage girls there flashing us and making sexual noises, as did the older men and women in their group. Now the 2 girls weren't told to do that, they just did it themselves. Fair enough, the age of sexual consent in Australia is 16, but I didn't consent to wanting to see that. There were primary school age children in that group being exposed to this behaviour. That's one of the things that upset me most - the parents in that group showing their kids how to be horrible human beings.

These references aren't to people all over the world, they're directed specifically at the people who attacked us that day. Nobody else. My retaliation to them was by writing this when I got home, parked outside my house and still in the car on my phone. It was fresh and I use it as a reference for whenever things like this happen again, as they have a couple of times since but thankfully not as bad. I look back at this, remember my emotions that day and it helps me deal with my thoughts in a better way than the emotions presented here.

Hi Anthony, you've made a couple of great points. I agree with most of what you said. I realized that it's easy to hurt or embarrass each others without noticing. For example, I think your notice for Maher that he doesn't have to think he found an ally, just because he left a very short comment on your poem, was uncalled for. I felt awkward reading it, and since Maher had to defend himself for leaving that comment, then he must have felt the same way about your note. I know, you had no certain intentions, you were just making things clear, BUT this is exactly my point. I mean, sometimes it sounds like we all have to defend our statements. It's sad.

I skimmed the contest posts a couple of times and it made me realize that although no one directly insulted Ben, but it seems he felt he was being shut down, or in other words, he was receiving replies that stood out angrily, which obviously provoked him, but IMO that shouldn't have been the case. He lost his temper. I wish he just stopped replying after the 1st posts didn't go well. After all, it was not about him, but the more he replied, the more things got worse. He tried to fix the situation but they were unsuccessful attempts. Everyone was angry. I remember in one of his posts, trying to explain his point of view, and I am sure his intentions were pure, but he tried to justify that some people who come from certain countries and backgrounds have x beliefs as though they were a bit behind. For me, that was pretty offensive because that's not true. It's just a misconception. I remember it didn't go well with me, but I never replied to him directly or responded. I know he has friends from those backgrounds, but I also know his justification made no sense to the public, or me.

The main issue back then, and obviously now, is that some of us are not that strong at explaining our case. People tend to mix between cultures and religions. Just like a decade ago, someone here told me Islam doesn't allow women to drive, he didn't even realize it was some sort of rule in Saudi Arabia ( a law that got abolished recently). Just because Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country or even Iran, that doesn't mean the rules set by the govt. are Islamic. They're not. Ben was right that there are parts of the world where certain norms in the West are not acceptable, but this has nothing to do with being open-minded or developed or whatsoever. Even in Afghanistan, a war-torn country dominated by militants, you have to deal with people as individual cases. There's a thin line between culture and region, but it's a major one.

and Maher, actually, I appreciate your discipline. It's awkward when people are discussing a matter related to you, even if not you personally. It was your control over your responses that opened my eyes. If you were some sort of ignorant sexist, you would have no reason to apologize, remove your poem or defend yourself. You would simply not care, as any sexist maniac would do. When the site was randomly choosing poems and my poems went to the front page on one of these weeks, not only did I feel awkward about people writing my name in the forum to discuss the issue, but also I couldn't not feel accused after receiving PMs about it. Then, STAR spoke on my behalf without me calling for it, she was kind enough to highlight to others that this IS actually awkward. Some members, until this moment, don't see it was uncalled for to say whatever they did to me and never apologized for putting me in that situation. In a subject as sensitive as this one, I do think you have more control over your feelings than I did then. I also read your poem, which another member here highlighted, "Perspective" - and in my perspective, it does NOT make you a sexist-bad person. You obviously wrote what they think and what you think. It seems like you live or lived in a very toxic and racist environment. It's so hard to cope with that. I hope you are surrounded by better people. It's unhealthy to be treated that way and you need to be very tough to be pressured by such people without exploding. You exploded in your poems, I guess.

I don't think there's anything to explain, to be honest. This is a futile argument. You are right that we can all judge each other based on poems. We can label some as suicidal over their poems, or cheater or unfaithful if we don't go and discuss their context with them. Many people don't know that poems they think are about some broken relationship are actually about a family member. Some are about my mom. People will read poems from their own perspectives. The difference is that your poems are not vague. On the contrary, they are straightforward. I am not sure if you intend to write a poem actually or to voice your opinion where you won't be targeted by the racist people in your life. They sound like revenge poems because you couldn't defend yourself well on spot.

I get it, you are a devoted religious individual, for you, sexual relations, wearing a certain type of clothes, living a certain lifestyle is wrong and even unhealthy. Cool. Don't be ashamed, most religions actually forbid almost the same social matters. HOWEVER, However, there is also a thin line between living by your beliefs and judging others based on them. That is not acceptable. Based on your religion, you should know better that we are all born from different tribes, nations, colors, and backgrounds. We need to coexist. Don't respond to hate by hate or anger with anger. No one should lecture you or give you life lessons based on your poems but since this is where the tide got us, I am saying what I am saying. No one should ever judge anyone based on their beliefs, no matter the case. This is the root of all aches caused by reading your poems. Those who can't read your mind can't justify your statements. However, you have the right to be believed when you apologize and explain yourself. At least, I won't give myself the right to say you are a liar. Living by your beliefs won't make you sexist Maher, it will make you a conservative person, and that's not an accusation. But even if unintentionally, if you label others based on those beliefs, you'll definitely be labelled if it happens that your statements go out in public. The full half of the cup here, is that maybe we all learned how to express ourselves better in the future. In a way that doesn't offend or hurt others. You could go write that same poem again, saying how you were called names because you didn't want to fit in by doing certain things, however without labeling every different person out there, but by standing up for yourself proudly.

Yes, I agree with others who said so before and with what Anthony also said. I believe you should have been approached by someone in the 1st place to test your reaction, and that's because I don't think you or Ben are sexist people. I just think you both make poor arguments, especially when in rush. *And just like every other person, including myself, you have your own misconceptions. It's the same for everyone else. We badly, do need to see through our differences, very true, Anthony.

Hi Rania,

I completely agree with what you've said and thank you for again wording your response so well, I really do appreciate it. Thank you also for acknowledging the cause to this reaction of a poem. I get it - it's not nice, but I wrote it at that time because I knew it would be a reminder of exactly what went down that day and I need that as something to look back on and measure myself against.

I have no issue with my posts being criticised. As Anthony and yourself said, which I agree with - I posted it publicly, so I have to be prepared to cop what comes from it. My issue is with labels being thrown around by people who have never held a conversation with me, never really even commented on anything I've written in the past and seem to overlook all the other poems I have in pursuit of ones they could use to prove I'm a "sexist". I dunno, I've never done that to anyone on here who had poems I found offensive or I could assume would be against men, nor would I ever. I wrote about a specific experience that happened at a specific time, so to me at least, the text is about specifically the people in that event and nobody else.

I often don't have a draft system when I write about events like this because I'm writing about something real that physically happened. They're there for me to look back on when something similar happens again so I can take a step back, look at how I handled it before and try to come up with a better mental state - which admittedly is necessary, especially in times like this where it's easy to lose your mind in lockdown. This happened 3 years ago. Similar things have happened since and I've used this piece and the emotions/memories in it to guide me to better ends. Granted, there wasn't much I could do in that instance when outnumbered 3:1 by a racist group, but I can reflect on it at least. If I had censored it and made 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th drafts so as not to come across as sexist 3yrs down the line, it would be so watered down I'd not be able to draw much lesson from it. I'm not saying this as an excuse, this is actually part of the reason why I write and seldom go past a 2nd draft. Most of what I have here is 1st draft aside from basic spell checking. The lyrics/songs went through multiple drafts as they need to fit to music, that's necessary. It's not a boast, I do this to preserve exactly what I went through at the time to look at it later as a touchstone to be measured against. Did I improve? Did I not? That sort of thing.

So yeah, if people want to label me as something, go ahead. I only ask that they at the very least get the full picture first before jumping to a conclusion. I understand how such conclusions can be made, of course, but as I said before - when I read someone else's poetry that seems offensive, I don't assume what the author's intentions were based on my own beliefs or ideology. To me, that's not right as it would mean I'm putting words in their mouth, so to speak. Letters on their keyboards maybe? Dunno. I'd ask the author for the context. I've posted so many love/sadness-related poems that people have commented on with their relation to them. Some of the comments honestly had NOTHING to do with the intention of the text lol, but to me that's great. I remember someone interpreted a piece I wrote called "Lovely Way To Die" as being about suicide and the pains of life. We had a pretty lengthy discussion via messages about it - it was great. In actuality, it was about looking back on life and being content with it to the point where death isn't necessarily a bad thing when it knocks at your door and sits in front of you. I had 4 comments from women on 'Perspective' and each had their own take. If any were offended by it I'd have addressed them right away as soon as they contacted me. Nobody did. In fact, I had messages from others asking if I was ok because they knew that's not what I'm usually like as they've held conversations with me and we'd gotten to know each other. I found that to be very nice and supportive.

You're right, this was a revenge poem because I personally don't like physical violence, so I wrote about it to vent and posted it as explicit, because it is. Sure, we could have retaliated against those people physically in self defense as we had every right to. I may not be a big guy, but I can hold my own. But there were kids there, even though they were being egged on to abuse us by their parents, none of us wanted to be a bad example, so we did our best to leave. Should I apologise for what happened or the raw text that came out as a result for me to remember it by? I don't think I should. I read it and it reminds me to be better next time and that's why I write. Do I owe people an explanation when they ask me "hey, what's this all about?". Absolutely and I'm usually pretty happy to do so. If people want to criticise me as a person, then at least get to know me first :)

I understand what you're trying to say, and don't get me wrong, not trying to be the devil's advocate here, or think I'm contradicting myself. Just replying to your post and taking another chance to clarify what I said.

Our initial reaction to the poem was not because we didn't know you as a person. At least not my reaction. Won't talk on behalf of others or clarify what they said.

But, think of it the other way around. A poem about Muslim conservative women, stating how close minded they are, claiming they have no taste, no freedom of expression, living in stone age and saying they are all oppressed females who can't think or make decisions for themselves. Let's say the writer who wrote this piece wrote it because he was provoked by a group of religious people who accused him of being an infidel, calling him a person of no honor or values and who should rot in hell along with his bitc** women. will you or any other religious person accept those insults about Muslim women and say hey maybe he has a story behind those painful words? Let alone that the poem received an HM. It's impossible for your 1st reaction to be so peaceful and loving. You are offended. The person, who was a victim of insults and racism himself, has offended a group of people just in revenge. Now the scale of your reaction would differ yes. Your approach will differ yes. But not the fact that the poem is offensive and perhaps should have been written in a personal blog or a diary rather than in a public forum. IMO.

In your case, you came forward and said what you said, saying those poems don't really present who you are as a person but rather how you tackled the issues you faced, including the racist people who bullied you. I'd like to be given the benefit of the doubt, so why deprive you of it ? No one can lecture you but as you said, you posted this in public and so came the responses. I still think your approach is not right, but that comes with experience. You should neither go into violence nor should you hold a grudge against those who are different. Just show them the better version of yourself. Some people will accept you as you are and appreciate you as a person, others, of the same group, will look down at you. It's just like this everywhere. Literary everywhere.

Anyway, I don't think I have anything valuable to add in this regard. I just didn't want to leave my words unfinished, without clarifying what I did not clarify before, especially regarding you as a person and Ben as a person. I don't look down at neither of you. Anyway, I don't think I said otherwise in neither of my comments. I said it before, I'll say it again, I wish I said it earlier, but Ben shouldn't have left and shouldn't have felt that he's welcome to leave. I didn't understand why he made that decision. I thought he should have stood up for himself better, but maybe things just went out of hands and this is why I hate written debates and try to avoid them.

On the contrary, your insight here was very valuable to me and I thank you for it. This poem ("Perspective") that was brought into the mix was submitted to the explicit section and didn't receive any sort of HM, but I do get where you're coming from and you do make a good point. Though I'll not apologise for it, if there is an issue with this poem in the explicit section, then I will respect your decision if you'd prefer it to be taken down. I know that I've not broken any rules, but I respect your opinion and you have made some great points, so I'm happy to take your advice if you'd like to give it.

My end comment was more to show I was defending him from being targeted, not for his words. I felt everything I said was warranted, I wanted to make sure my stance was very clear.

No I don't think there's room for any sort of decision here. Especially not from me. I'm not entitled to make such decisions in any way either. Even your last poem...it was just my loud thoughts since the situation was so tense. You have nothing to apologize for anymore, Maher. I hate that we're at this point with you wondering if you should take off more poems. I hope that wasn't me who got you to feel this way. You should not remove anything that doesn't go against the site rules. As to what you write and how you think, that's also a personal matter but I hope the past issues have altered our thinking, even if a little bit, to the better. All of us.

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Got you, Anthony. Thumbs-up!

It wasn't you at all Rania, if anything you've had very productive discussions with me, at least from my standpoint, and you've been very helpful throughout all of this. Really, thank you.

Thank you Anthony for the advice and for sharing your story with us - It really made me think. I can't fault any of what you said and it was also very helpful.

May only the best and safest come both your ways.