What is poetry?

In brief, for me
~~Poetry is when inspiration, imagination, thoughts (reasons) and (~inner ~ outer) tone, intersect in the mind of a talent. ~~

I know in essence it goes way deeper than this, but this is spot good to start.
I encourage everyone to challenge, or add or take away any section of, this description. We are all learning whether teacher or students.

This was my thoughts. What about yours? What poetry is to you? Tell me. I like to know.

I think you've said it all. Maybe to each the purpose differs but you've said it all perfectly. When my thoughts, inner voice, and emotions intersect and take the lead, I end up writing a poem. I never wake up and decide that today I want to write. All these factors you've mentioned intersect suddenly and I end up writing to fix the knot. So in my case, my poems are literally fragments of myself.

Is poetry always emotions and thoughts though?
Because I dont think so :)

You totally got me there . I forget the emotion::
~~Poetry is when, emotions, inspiration, imagination, thoughts (reasons) and (~inner ~ outer) tone, intersect in the mind of a talent. ~~

Poetry is the most emotional cognizance of the universe, besides music. In poetry, in my opinion, there are sometimes, more raw feelings than in the music. Music dominantly needs only sound to cognize the world and express emotions, but poetry needs world, concepts and music, but it dependency to music is diminishing in the modern or formless poetry.
Formless poetry presents the pure poetical perspective of the universe. It hardly tries to impress you with the sound (sound is another tool not the dominant one) It impresses you with the true poetical grasps. I can present you some poems that reach such poetic purity that even translation did not, too much, affect their poetical integrity, even though the form naturally is always ruined in translations as we know, so as the music, outer music that is, because inner music in poetry shouldn't be affected that much, in translation .
In that thought, poetry from the inner musicality, is as musical as the music.
But all the arts not more though less are like that. So, in musical dependency, all the arts are dependent to music from the inner harmony points of view.

Thank you darling Star for correcting me.

I totally agree with you Rania: "I never wake up and decide that today I want to write." That is why it has been close to impossible for me to participate in any of our prompt challenges or competitions, unless the subject inspired me.
Don't get me wrong I am not denying the usefulness of those challenges, specially as a practice tools, not as true poetry and also as affirmation for our community .

You also said: " So in my case, my poems are literally fragments of myself." I thing even more . Even in ordinary poets their works are more than the fragment of their selves. It is there super ego, their petter selves. But in great poetry, the poems represent the vastness of the writer's soul, her/his connection to the "Collective Consciousness" through epiphanies and inspirations.

I get where you’re coming from, but some of my best pieces are those that are written without a second thought or even an emotion, they’re random from no specific inspiration or anything.

If you dont mind could you share some poems, that you spoke of :)

I give you an example here that I start with:

No one uttered a word
not the host, nor the guest
neither the white chrysanthemum.

from master; Oshima Ryota (1718-1787)

This haiku is pure poetry. It never could be demolished by translation and do not need any accessory of form. And even though is written in(haiku)form but The poetical skill behind it is beyond the form , it is unbreakable.
other trance if it:

No body talks -
guests and host and
a white chrysanthemum
or
They spoke no words
the visitor, the host
and the white chrysanthemum

The correct syllables translation::

They spoke not a word
the guest , the host and even
white chrysanthemum.

It doesn't really matter, as soon as you see what the poet tries to convey, the vastness beyond the imagery, not the musical (outer tone,) presentation of it, you get stricken by thunder. This is a pure poetry, that is almost independent to is form and the very way it has been written. It has (inner tone) that can't be demolished by translation or... not like the most of Sonnets and Gazelles .. which if you eliminate the beauty of the way they were presented, there, almost nothing is left.

Hmm poetry is nothing and everything at the same time. I would like to say that poetry is everything that is written like I usually say but poetry is in “nothing” and poetry is in “everything” too.

I mean, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think the definition of poetry will differ from person to person based on whatever purpose each individual assigns to it

Something may not be a poem to me, but if it is a poem to you, it is a poem. I may not regard something as art, but if you do, it is art. I may not love something, but if you do, it is loved. What I love most about poetry is its subjectivity.

Haha, Luce. You still holding on to your radical vision of "what poetry is" at list from 10 years ago. You then, were so antiestablishment and anarchistic like me then, in some of your views. I found it even cute then, but now it's worrisome to me that you still think this way. But still it is quite all right.
You said: " Hmm poetry is nothing and everything at the same time." This is not the specific in which we determine a criterion of a subject. What you’re saying here is so general that could include almost any other genre in science and art. I could say, cinema, or mathematic, physic or music are exactly the same way. Again then: what differ these genres? So, your emotional outburst of ideas here, is somewhat irrelevant to the specific studies.
Then you go on saying: " I would like to say that poetry is everything that is written..." O come on! I did not know I was versifying whenever I write my shopping or laundry list. Then you go on: " but poetry is in “nothing” and poetry is in “everything” too." Here the argument is like I ask you what is orange and you say oranges are on the table also in the fridge. You are not answering what the orange IS, regardless of its whereabout!!
You continue: "I think the definition of poetry will differ from person to person based on whatever purpose each individual assigns to it" And again here mistaking the purpose of any individual poetry by its universal meaning and inclusion as a subject and genera. Any concept, such as poetry, has a universal purpose, a description in which it is describe with.
Why are you so reluctant to accept that poetry too is a genera and has categorical meaning attached to it. like any other phenomena, Luce?

Thanks a lot for responding.

You are right Jane. Though, here, you are talking about the quality of the individual poems, not the general purpose of the poetry as a genera of art and science.
But it is so true that poetry is so subjective from person to person, but not in general description what soever.

Thanks Jane for responding.

“Any concept, such as poetry, has a universal purpose, a description in which it is describe with.”

Do you by chance remember our conversation about the “spoon’s purpose”.? Haha I was going to reply but didn’t have time and eventually forgot. I think you said that we cannot change their purpose. My husband tells me that when he sees me using a spoon when I’m “supposed” to use a fork. :/ or when I’m using something whose purpose isn’t supposed to be used in the way I’m using it…

Anyways, have you ever written a mathematical proof? . It’s hard but so beautiful. When we are able to understand the proofs written by other mathematicians we can see that those proofs are poems. Pure mathematics is poetry.

Chemistry is also a part of poetry.

For me, as you know,

Poetry purpose is to build connections by appealing to the senses. When we attempt to express our feelings, we open up a connection to understanding ourselves. When someone else reads what we express, there’s an an opportunity for a possible connection.

Everywhere you see, there’s connections. One single letter can create a connection. One single word can create a connection. One image too.

Poetry is beautiful. It allows us to understand.

“come on! I did not know I was versifying whenever I write my shopping or laundry list.“

^well, add some creativity to it and may be you’ll find it more poetical. Lol but writing that list will help you remember what to buy… if you forget it, you might end up upset. Oh your emotions might get trigger. Writing the list could make you happy… your emotions are affected may be even slightly

I remember Luce that conversation. I thought You were on point there. I was impressed. I did not understand that you were turning the purpose of an object permanently. For example I did not get you wanted to really use spoon permanently as knife, even when the knife is available. If so poor your husband, Now officially you are insane. You cannot op listen to radio through a shoe box or hammer a nail with barbecue chicken or ice-cream. It is absurd dear Luce.
The link to that conversation, incase: https://www.poems-and-quotes.com/poems/1284864/comments

Then you change the concept of poetry and replace it with harmony and aesthetic values. Even though poetry is a very healthy source of both, but it is not the only recipient of them. Harmony is everywhere, in mathematical proofs, in architectural designs, in painting, in even human relationship, or a slice of cucumber… but you insist that everything beautiful or aesthetically acclaimed, is by definition poetry. This is adequate by approximation of low margin as common talks, as random speaking, but not categorically, or scientifically. You even deny the poor poetry a category of its own dear. (haha what poetry has ever done to you?) You could say: this food is a master piece, this woman is so beautiful like a poetry... We use these expressions in our conversations not as academic facts. I can say these new shoes is so beautiful like a poetry. But if you mean it literally, you have a great discrepancy in your grasp, distinguishing between “figure of speech” and academic understanding.

You said “Poetry purpose is to build connections by appealing to the senses.” This seems to be your description of poetry. So again you are mixing up a function of a phenomena and replacing it with its main purpose and description. So many other genres are able to do the same thing How about ‘massage,’ ‘customer service’, ‘design,’ or 'family' can be included in your narrative. You’re smart, you know that, so, you start to call all of them poetry.

So, the fundamental way of describing a thing is by comparing its differences with the neighbouring subject. So Luce tell me what is different between poetry and harmony, creativity, or …?

Thanks Luce for responding.

Dear star I forgot to respond to some of of your concerns. I know I am not obligated to but I like to. First you said : " Is poetry always emotions and thoughts though?
Because I dont think so :)"

It is the general description of the Art: ~~ART IN GENERAL IS THE EMOTIONAL COGNIZANCE OF THE UNIVERSE.~~ in opposed to sciences that are:
~~ the mental and logical cognizances of....~~
I read your poem they all have emotional instruction. But I think the confusion here is the word emotion. Emotion is not necessarily some mushy mushy out burst of feeling. Emotions have a big ranges of colours. some of them very settled and cool in opposed to fiery and passionate. Some even camouflaged or sublimated or suppressed.

And inspiration also appears differently in different people. like sometimes or better, for some people.They are ecstatic an even orgasmic, and for some it manifest inly by urge of writing, or composing, painting... depending on the genre.
and about the thought. : Of course your poems have thoughts in them. No mental activity could be without the thoughts process. Though the process happens differently in different individuals. I think you mean a pre-thought . And in this case you process spontaneously instead of gradually before starting to write. Lots of poets are like this.

“did not understand that you were turning the purpose of an object permanently“

- ouch, nah. Not permanently only due to circumstances. Having the ability to change the purpose and assign other purpose temporarily. Let’s say for instance, I worked my eight hour shift. I come home starving… the dishes are all dirty. There’s no spoons only forks. My food is hot. I need to eat because if I don’t I start feeling unwell (literally). I could wash the spoon but the food that I’m eating can be eaten with the fork as well… so I see no problem in using the fork. Similarly I can do that with other objects or other stuff. It’s a depends case. Whether the benefits outweighs the Uhmm not sure what to call it

“Then you change the concept of poetry and replace it with harmony and aesthetic values.”

^ hmm I’m saying poetry is everything and nothing at the same time. So harmony is part of poetry and so are aesthetics or no aesthetics. Beautiful to me is not something aesthetically pleasing per se there’s more to it than just that.

So Luce tell me what is different between poetry and harmony, creativity, or …

Harmony, creativity are part of poetry. Poetry encapsulates both and much more.

Edited::

You: " Harmony, creativity are part of poetry. Poetry encapsulates both and much more."
There is a sense of joy seeing how you evade the answers and take the conversation to where you think you are strong. Okay what would be the difference between music, exercise, cooking, or industry,'with poetry? Since they all seem to have Harmony, creativity... What differs one genre from other since poetry is everything (God) to you?

Luce you repeat everything you said. My logic was not sufficient enough for you to make you see what I am saying. ((Did you throughly read them? Because I covered all this)) In the end I do not need to change your opinion. All I could do is to shed light, the process of understanding is almost independent to my tryings and sweats. That is why they say : "the teacher is there always, whenever you're ready." So coming to understand anything is depend to the level of our readiness. In other words: Universe herself decides who is to know and who isn't."
Forcing knowledge to someone is like Stalin forcing cooperatives upon the Russian farmers. It has always a disastrous out come.

But read the conversation again in your good time. They may look different then. Admitting they are tough subjects to begin with.

Thanks for responding dear Luce.

What differs one genre from other since poetry is everything (God) to you?

^^^ Bingo!! It’s just classifications but ultimately it’s the same. Genre’s are classifications something to individualize and make easier for Uhmm find? (I’m not sure what the word I’m looking for). Music has different genre’s. I’m just saying that poetry is at the top of the pyramid. It’s subdivided but ultimately everything is poetry.

Luce:I think we have the same problem describing philosophy, art. The chaos of such description are going to affect our understanding of any other genre , making the cognition totally an amalgamation of emotional outburst of misconception. Actually makes a scientific approach almost impossible. But that is okay we are not aiming to become scholar in this.
So, you win. I have done my chore here. I respect your trying to make sense of everything in your way. It is so stubborn and cute in the same time.

Thanks again for responding.

Added::

I think these radical thinkings come from passion, specially in this, passion for poetry. I appreciate that. Any passion(except evil of course) outcasts indifference, even a wrong passion. I am not suggesting your passion is the case here, now I am not discussing that with you. I am just talking in general about another subject. I think you should consider yourself one of the lucky ones, because you have passion. Also having wrong passions is a part of growing soul, because a true passion always finds its home. But of course, there, should be one to begin with. It is a fire within us. We born with it.

lots of love
dd

“So, you win. I have done my chore here. I respect your trying to make sense of everything in your way. It is so stubborn and cute in the same time.”

- Have I ever mention that I hate winning? I mean, i hate winning when I am actually not participating in an activity with the intention to win or to prove that i am right. To be honest with you, I do not know if I’m right. I just know what I know followed by instinct. I doubt everything even myself until there’s no more doubt.

My ultimate purpose - the one I cannot change permanently even if I wanted to … is to understand. That’s my ultimate purpose. This purpose I can change it temporarily depending on situations but ultimately the temporarily changing that purpose goes back to the ultimate purpose - to understand. It is from this that this passion you talk about is born.

That’s basically all. All I need is to understand.

Anyways, thanks for your concern. I appreciate it.

"My ultimate purpose - the one I cannot change permanently even if I wanted to … is to understand."

I did not see that. Haha first as you know by now for sure, you are quite stubborn, even about the obvious mistakes. Leaving true reasons for fantasy. like today. I think you are a dreamer which is good , though dreamer often have the tendency to replace their visions with the truth. ( I hope you don't mind me being frank, Luce)
You have some passion for understanding, better than average. But what you call passion for understanding is actually curiosity. (except in medicine recently for your illness) They are different , you know? I have been teaching here and there and I know that. Some clues you are reluctant to pursue because they do not follow your standards. Understanding is a hard work. it need true passion making headway to dedication and acceptance, and being absolutely humble to knowledge.
A real seeker always is ready to accept otherwise, if s/he is wrong. One must be fair to the truth and have lots of passion to be able to replace the dominant urge of being right, with it.

Thanks again Luce

Interesting and it does make sense now, thats the beauty of poetry dont you think? Some shine as formed, others doesnt matter how or what language it's written with :)

Edited

That is exactly the way it should be. We need all the fruits of the garden. I use "forms" sometimes, but I try not to let them to enslave my works. For the reason poetry is further than music in essence, music dominates the poetry from the sensory point of views.
Poetry had battled for millenniums in order to gain its liberty from the music. ( nothing could liberate from music, I am talking about latitude.) I know from the extrinsic points, is much more fun to read "form" poetry, like it is more appealing to have an ordinary wine in a fancy grail, than good wine in a styrofoam cup, for the average 'Joes & Janes,' in a blind taste test. But one, a true poet, not a rhymester, would exert his/her talent somehow venturing in the field of "un exact medium." Because the rhythm, meter or rhyme are not direct way, or the main path to the realm of epiphany and ecstatic dreams. They always distract or even change the flow or even the course of the poetical surges and if not kill, at least injure the courant of inspiration.
In this day & age, for the first time, the real poetry has been given a chance to reveal itself without being shackled by the music. I support that because I support poetry, because my love for it and I believe poetry could have the existence and a true genre of its own:: The pure poetry, absolute, 100% straight Vodka!! It is not yet and sure, never will be, for everyone. People have to mix their intoxication medium with flavours, colours, curves and scents. We are consumer you know? Only what looks nice to eyes, that is all, in the trivial world!!
Though pure poetry is not yet well stablished. The mediocrity hates it, the same way that Hollywood executives hated Orson Wells, because his cinema was so good that none could make much money out of them. "Popularity is often, a dissident from the real meaning!!" Once even they sent him to Latin America and reedited his masterpiece, changed is edition version and destroyed the clips they omitted. They truly ruined a masterpiece of cinema because it did not sell, because average people are addicted to the sensual pleasures, not the spiritual ones. Now we never have the version that were supposed to be even better than the "Citizen Kane"
True poetry is very beautiful if one gets to know it, it is tasteful but to the lofty palates. Seekers like me get distracted all the times by other flowers, colours and splendours. That is normal we are alive. We go for things ta stimulate our senses. because we haven't grown souls yet. Not everyone wants to venture into the realms of essence, because their, the pleasure is too sublime, unlike our habitual daily delicacies.
Some of the "form" poetries also fit perfectly in the category of pure poetry. So we are not talking definite here. Poetry can not be completely without the music. Music is dominant in art, the same way math is in the science. But I believe a (poetical) talent, not a (poetical) spectator, should always push forward towards the true poetical comprehension of the world.
We shouldn't push poor poetry back again to ghazal and sonnets, unless when we have something worthy to express.

Thanks for responding Star

We cannot put a definition on what is true poetry. Years ago I was up against a creative writing professor because he was saying that form poetry is the true poetry, but I didnt agree one reason is that Im not good with form poetry, and I still write. But also we all know thats not true!
“In this day & age, for the first time, the real poetry has been given a chance to reveal itself without being shackled by the music”
^
I agree to an extent with what you said that poetry nowadays have been given a chance to reveal itself, as I said it’s not easy to define true poetry and I’m not defining it but in this day and time poetry is for everyone rather than for those who are good with literacy only. Which is why many are coming up with powerful poetry, we’re (I mean poets and writers) not cornered in a box with guidelines and rules to follow to write a good poem, we’re all not afraid to experiment with poetry and what we write .

We are almost on the right track. but because we do not know the definition of anything, of course we are going to get uneasy when someone tries to define things for us. Poetry is a concept. Concept is a universal idea about a certain thing captured in a word. Every single word has definition.
Our reluctance to define poetry, is because we never studied poetry as a subject, as an art form. Most of the poets in any poetry site, I bet do not know what the purpose of art is, or poetry is even an art form, and what is the one of science and how these two commingle. I know scholars who still don't know what philosophy and its objectives are.
Poetry indeed has definition so as anything mental. But its definition just cover to the certain extend, like every other definition. Poetry as a genre of art and literature has its own characteristic that one could distinguish it from ice cream, geometry, dr. pepper, and history. Without classification, there, almost be no mental activities.
In the other hand the subject like poetry and even the other art's genres all are much more than their description. But unfortunately, one cannot go very far without grasping them. Here we go again:: the very definition of paradox!

Thanks star….

Luce to be honest when for the first time I heard you saying: even a laundry list is poetry, it was quite off putting for my intelligence. I really doubted your sanity then. ( I doubt mine all the times) Specially the way you were defending it, did nothing to my understanding but disturbing. But now I totally understand you. I like what you are trying to say. You see poetical "potency" in everything, and because your mind and your spontaneity are superimposed, you mentally stretch too far, but you should be careful, the further you stretch the radius of your mind, the margin of accuracy reduces exponentially or gets out of hands. I am not discouraging it, I love faraway visions, the claws of my dreaming are very deep also.
You then come and try to defend your vision logically. Not a wise thinker would ever dare to attempt on that, because how complicated things would get in time.
But I give it to you it is so beautiful the scenery you portray with all its flaws. It is not bonded by reason but music. You deny all the classifications, so it is so impossible to defend, yet still is delightful and it works, seeing the world through your eyes. Realities all are the matter of interpretation. Yours has its own merit and uniformity. But first you have to bring others to your dream, then let them see how it works.
Also dreams are always becoming, one must mould and un mould constantly, otherwise, if not currant, the dreams become sterile and climacteric, no matter how enthusiastic they were.

The trick is, not replacing the reality with our dreams. We must always adjust the inner with the outer. They are correspondents, (( the two mirrors theory:: they correspond~reflect~ that is why they go on forever)) if not, we become delusional and lose the faculty of big parts of our brains, dimming them un useful by our own inclinations. So, there is no surprise when our mind become stiff by our own volition. Yet I ten times rather to deal with high landers like you rather than to those who can not harbor any far reaching dreams if even their lives are depend on it..

Story::
Any way our conversation reminded me of the Rumi’s story about the Shepherd and the Prophet. THE Prophet saw a Shepherd praying to God, Pleading to him:: O dear God where are you? I want to comb your beautiful hair and kiss your silky hands. I want to rub your feet and be your servant. The Prophet approached the man and said what you are saying is wrong, if not sin. God has no hair or feet. He does not need your tender touches and so on. The story says that the Shepherd became so saddened by his transgression, he apologized and left with feeling of shame. Then God appeared to The Prophet and blamed him: "why did you break that man’s heart? You’re here to connect, not to startle them away! That man prayer is as expedient as yours."
So, the prophet chased the shepherd and tolled him: "I am sorry my man. I was wrong. Just talk to “Him,” tell “Him” what is in your heart no matter what. God sees your LOVE not your words. Your feeling for Lord is as glorious as mine.

(Quoted from my memory)

Poetry is The “Word”

"The Word, was in the beginning:
and the Word was with God, and the Word was, God. "

New Testament, John , chapter one.

but you should be careful, the further you stretch the radius of your mind, the margin of accuracy reduces exponentially or gets out of hands. I am not discouraging it, I love faraway visions, the claws of my dreaming are very deep also.

^ I like when the circle expands and I’m given more radius. The circles has so many points. As long as, I don’t lose sight of the radius, I can always go back go the center. It’s important to have a good foundation. That foundation it’s the center. But it’s extremely hard to find the center. Right now, I think I found the center but I have go thread with caution.

Anyways, it feels good to finally be understood. Thanks.

Okay, darling, but you responds seem so lifeless. What happened?? Did you run out of your understanding credits?? I told you, understanding, is very taxing, otherwise everyone would be Napoleon or Leonardo Da Vinci.
Me , I am different. I love to teach my "Understanding" way more than this. I could go on and on if there was a platform of enthusiasm. My energy is way more than this, but what can I do, no one wants to know in this level? They only brag, they want to know. They don't even care how knowing the very meaning of poetry could help their poetry. So, I stop here. It would be very mindless of me if I bother with this again.

My kiddos have been ill. I haven’t gotten much sleep. Not sleeping well is taxing me. On the other hand, our bodies are amazing. The more I read, the more amazed I become. Though, I need to take a break.

Have you ever read the divine comedy? ( I forgot if I asked you about it?

Poetry is the spectrum of “The Word” in our individualities

WE make The clarity, crystal clarity ~The Word~ to break to endless rainbows of colour spectrums. We see the clear world through kaleidoscope tubes.
Poetry shines and rainbows only when we reach out to “The Word” ~inspiration, epiphany~ or vice versa. So, any poetry that do not the reflect the “Christal,” in “essence” is not poetry, it is verbal puzzle or game; flowers drawn lifelessly, plastic bouquet of roses; thing circulating only about the idea of self.
Sometimes however the seekers become so crafty in there, in their writings, that due to the harmony that is achieved by longing for something deep within our souls, their writing sometimes rebounds them with “The Word” That they are from IT, no matter how distorted it presents itself. “The word” occasionally reward them . They identifying themselves with the Word through their crafts, which now is a forgotten memory for them. The act of imitating the perfection, infinity, while we are finite, is like identifying yourself through your subconscious with the consciences of “The Word”

You asked few times in the past and I haven't got a chance to read it since. I know lots about it. I do not read at all for few years, and I haven't dig into literature since I was young. Reading is very difficult for me nowadays due to my spiritual increment and formation.
I love Homer, Dante, Pushkin and Ferdowsi as the pinnacle of Epic poetry.

Though I am ready to listen if you have something to say about it. Hope related to the subject, but I am game even if not.

“Poetry Ought to Have a Practical Purpose” ’, a poem by Paul Eluard.

For My Exacting Friends

If I tell you that the sun in the woods
Is like a belly carried away in a bed
You believe me you approve of my desires
If I tell you that the crystal of rainy days
Echoes forever in the laziness of love’s ecstasies
You believe me you draw out the duration of your loving

If I tell you that in the branches of my bed
A bird is nesting that never says yes
You believe me you share my distress

If I tell you that at the bottom of some stream
A river’s key turns like an overture to verdure
You believe me still more you can follow

But if I sing to you of my whole long highway with no detours
And my enormous countryside like a footpath unending
You give up on me you depart for the wilds

For you only wander aimlessly without recognizing that men
Have the need to hope and struggle
To explain the world and to change it

With one step of my heart I shall lead you
I’ve lived without power for a long time it’s the way I live now
But I’m amazed to hear you say that I speak to you just to delight you
When I would free you to unite you
As much as with algae and the reeds of the dawn
As with our other brothers creating their own daylight