Should The Pope be Given These Titles

Sources???.. I have heard polititians missquote the Pope several times Pat Buccanon said the pope was in favor of the death penalty which was never true. I am not saying it would be impossible for someone to get the idea he was involved in a coverup. I just want to know how someone could prove it. Should I assume the pope is guilty until proven innocent? even though i would admit to be skeptical about believing every thing i read i would still be curious to the sources

If monies were paid to keep it quiet doesn't that mean the vatican was being blackmailed SORRY i missed all this news. I still don't understand who filed the
suit ?You do understand that the vatican is a large organization don't you? Was it as big as the O.J Simson trail? I did know that many bishops were involved in class action suits

actually I know there are some preist in jail I enjoyed this discussion I wrote a poem when i was upset with a priest for making a poor jugment of a lesser severity I went through a very rebellious phase in my reconciiation with the church

HOLY ORDER

O Lord, we pray sincerely for Your holy order
May the leaders of the holy church, be the warder
Of the peace of Jesus Christ from border to border
That the ‘Mystical Body of Christ’ be our rewarder

As the words of the Father were given to the Son
We pray, Thy kingdom come, Thy mighty will be done
O Lord, let the Fire fall, and make us one
As we sing a song of love in unison

Have we surrendered to the will of God, or are we still acting like the boss?
It is said by many that the church was born when He died upon the cross
Saint Peter no longer denied Him after he saw this terrible loss
But every time he thought about the cock crowing he would turn and toss

I don’t mean to disrespect authority to any degree
I just thought telling the truth in this order could make us see
How important Holy Orders really can be
What are we to do when two authorities disagree?

We must act with humility and meekness, with patience, bearing with one another in love
Walk in a manner worthy of our calling, careful to preserve the unity of the Spirit of the Dove
One Lord, one faith, one baptism one body, and one Spirit, one God the Father of all, Who is above
To lead us to the most beautiful holy order in the universal church that I am speaking of

seeing as how we know that the gospel writters did not do a good job of covering the first Pope's denial can we be humble and assume that Jesus forgave Peter?

The departed Pope will be Sainted, it is only a matter of time.

I figure that the Pope would be held to the same standards as any other person for entry to Heaven, but I am not Catholic, so I really have no idea.

I'm probably not qualified to comment on this seeing as I am not part of any conventional religion, but I think giving people these titles alevates them to things they are not. I think the bad things that people do should be told to us straight, and we can all make up our own minds. Maybe we can call him John Paul The Slightly Great But Not As Great As God, Jesus Diana Princess Of Wales And Some Other Great People.
Or maybe John Paul The Slightly Tainted But We Admire Him Anyway.

Does covering it up not show that it is condoned? He certainly did not "come down hard" on these priests, he used his monotary status and resources to buy them (and the Church) out of the punishment that they should have recieved, i agree with Obscurely Fading on this one, to a certain extent he sent out the message he condoned it, simply because he did not do anything publically to make it stop.

When your kids do something bad and you dont punish them, it comes across like you are condoning the action because you do not take a stand against it.

The Pope did this on a larger scale.

well I respectfully have found no evidence that money was piad to the victims by the vatican much less that the pope made any effert to get involved i visited a site that was full of embaressing catholic history this seemed to be the best they could do on connecting THE VATICAN TO ANYTHING

The message below was sent to me in response to my earlier post to them. They are handling a class action suit against the Vatican. God help them to win it!!

God Bless,

Scott

___________________________________________

Delivered-To: genesis@g.pop.kiva.net
Delivered-To: kivanetmail-genesis@kiva.net
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 07:34:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vatican Bank Claims
Subject: Re: Thank You!!!!
To: Scott Berner

EASTON & LEVY

NEWSLETTER

VATICAN BANK CLASS ACTION LITIGATION

April 29, 2001 News for Immediate Release

NOTICE OF COURT HEARING

On May 25, 2001, the Honorable Judge Maxine Chesney will hold a hearing on the issue of "Political Question." The Vatican Bank and Franciscan Order have asked the court to dismiss the class action on grounds the court does not have jurisdiction over "political" matters. On behalf of plaintiffs we will be vigorously opposing the defendants’ motion.

All plaintiffs and potential class members as well as other interested parties are encouraged to attend this historic court hearing.
Hearing Date: May 25, 2001

Hmm might keep my two cents to myself on this one - to me its catholic/christian debate so I feel my opinion is not necessary nor valid....

Obscurely fading
I do love a good debate I do hope that no one takes it personal I disagree that the fact that no evidence that the monies came from the Vatican is just semantic because; in a legal argument ‘don’t worry bob I am not going to bring it to the attention of the Vatican I think if something is printed that cannot be proven it is called slander. But this theme on this thread has repeated the money came from the Vatican this is a case were a conclusion has been made before the facts are in. I am a little familiar with these cases because the bishop in my area had to go through a trail. In my opinion molesting a child is and always has been a mortal sin. Pope John Paul11 had the power to remove anyone from the clergy. Even in the days of the inquisition punishment was the duty of the state. As far as the charge he did not do enough to control his clergy. The data shows there was a rise in reported cases of abuse. The factual data shows that the aging pope had been shot, had a disease. many duties to perform. You were correct when you said there was no cover up
Why would a bishop in a far away place want to Inform the pope on something he was trying to cover up most of the errors in judgment were made by the bishops any way the money paid to the victims came from the dioceses i am sure that Bob was given a reason to believe that all monies paid to the victims were paid from the vatican that in itself is evidence enough, and is a matter of record in a class action suit vs. the catholic church....

I hope Ihave not offended any by my opinion i have always wanted to be a masterdebater lol love you guys

I will be as honest as I can with you. I don't think I am a good catholic. I do not think I am dogmatic When my mother was alive I used to argue about the authority of the church with her I read a lot of things that do not make sense to me. For instance I thought that John Paul's pardon of Galileo was kind of late. I do not know a lot about John Paul's handling of the scandal. I just happen to disagree that John Paul 11 was in any way evil. if the truth was known he probably held the mental health and innocence of children more sacred than anyone I just see a lot of unnecessary hateful statements about the pope you don't have to agree with me for me to like you even if the pope had control of all church money and he kept track of every dime of a million catholic churches it does not mean that he thought more of the power of his Papal throne than he did his service to God. The burden of proof is on the accuser. I am thankful we are judged by an all knowing God .

I admit that if anyone could show me that a court of law had found the pope guilty of a conspiracy to make it easier for bad priest to rape children I would have doubted the justice of that court

MICHAEL

I love how debates with religious folk always start out logical and then revert to the basis of faith and quotes when faced with fact.

Not that I dont love you, Michael, you know I do, it's simply that what Obscure is talking about is pretty self explanitory- in fact, she's putting me out of a job.

Anyhow, nice work, Obscure. I couldnt agree more, but you would do well to be a bit less controversial, beware the dreaded downvoters ;). You're new, so there's my advice.

Michael!!! You took out your quotes! Damn, lol.

Anyhow, I do think you are a bad Catholic, a very bad one indeed, considering you dare to question everything that they say and think for yourself!!!! tsk, tsk, shame on you ;)

Michael, you dont need to be a good Catholic. You need to be a good person, and I am sure you are, so fret not and I'll see you in heaven.

I did not accuse you of being hatefull obscure. if your not fimiliar with kaitlin i remember that she does not molest children just grown men and they like it. I love you too katilin [in a pureway of course] katilin also makes a good point about the down voters i have editted since you read it but I THINK YOU ARE MISSING MY POINT I know you did not write this but don't you think this line is hateful and judgmental
a saint
he ain't
and never will be
may he rot in hell
for an eternity......

you don't know me when i am good i am extremly good but when i am bad i am even better lol yes I will see you in heaven. hell! they' ll probably even let bob in

LoL If Bob can get in phewf!

I'll have no probs :o)

Aw man, who cares about the Pope dying? I mean really. he's just another dude slipped the mortal coil, and lets be honest, there are more deserving people who should be sainted...cause it's easy to be saint-like when you're the Pope.

I think he has [had] a lot to answer for because of his stance on contraception and abortion, particularly in regions of the earth where aids is rampant, like Africa and China, where as i'm sure many of you know, there is a steadly increasing number of Roman catholics. Effectively, this stance says to me, BELIEVE OR DIE!...because most adults are going to have sex before marriage, and if they can't use profilactics because of their beliefs, then in areas where aids is rife...they are putting their lives at risk of a most unpleasant death because of the dogmatic rigidity of the Pope.

There is of course the counter arguement that if these individuals really believed in God etc, they wouldn't have sex until married, thus protecting themselves from this affliction....but, well i don't think thats natural.

When Princess Diana died, the same week Mother Teresa passed away...but you never really heard about her, despite the fact she was Sainted. The Pope nothing more than a celebrity priest..and i see no divine spark in him that i do not see in everyone else.

Now Padre pio is another story...

i never knew his veiws against anything including children who have been molested by priest, i only found that out when i read this. He should be named a saint or refered to as great, paying the victims millions to be quiet is wrong, very, very wrong. i think he shouldn't be named a saint. But that's just my opinion.

It's like a plague that wont stop, in my humble opinion.

Thank you Mr Bob ShanK for the kind statements about me

Pope John Paul 11

So self-evident this saint will be sainted
As we envision the honors to be painted
There is not a cross, greater than a throne
Where the sins of his people become his own

He sees all sins in the garden of Gethsemane
Willing to accept His cup whatever it may be
The glory of the olive was our churches head
Praying for world peace as he broke the Bread

The Father gave his son to the cross not to condone
The act of this crucifixion understood by God alone
He died so that He could live in the hearts of great men
Willing to suffer persecution for His glory now and then

He had a poet’s passion for His order and His word
Speaking in many tongues so by many he was heard
A simple prayer of the rosary beating the rhythm of life
In communion with the saints accepting worldly strife

He did not pay the price to condone any sin
Forgiveness is necessary for healing to begin
Holy See, Vicar of Christ or Bishop of Rome
May our Lord bless you on your way home

Damn, I'm not sure how I missed this; I wouldn't have posted mine if I had. Thanks for pointing this out to me, Kaitlin!

I appreciate John Paul II for five main reasons... (1) he apologized for the Church's stance with Galileo and finally admitted that the world was round, (2) he finally admitted that December 25th was an arbitrary birthday assigned to Jesus' birth and not the actual date, (3) he has (generally) worked to improve social equity and justice amongst the poor of the world, (4) he was outspoken in his advocacy for peace in the world, whereas so many previous popes had been silent or even war-mongers, and lastly but not leastly (5) he apologized for the Church not having done more to assist Jews during WWII.

That said, I have disagreed with his policies on abortion, contraception, gays, the child abuse scandal, and most all other stances he's had.

But I have to respect him for having stepped away from a LONG, long tradition of admitting no wronghood whatsoever on the Church's part. That was a step I have to respect because it has been centuries in the waiting. Of course, that said, he didn't condemn the child abuse scandals. :(

Now, of course, we need to see where the Cardinals take us next. I'm very afraid that right when the world needs a Pope that will be progressive, open-minded, honest, and Light-engendering, they will fall back on ignorance, obfuscation, division, and war-mongering since that's such a comfortable role in the history of the Church.

The balance o f the heart, soul and mind reflects the humanness of us all and the Divine Redemption, which frees us from ourselves I agree with F.T.S. Miles I have studied the Papacy all the way back to St Peter and the time that Jesus said thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. There has clearly been a humanness of all divinely appointed leaders. I have not always understood Pope John Paul the second’s views
But I have to respect him for having stepped away from a LONG, long tradition of admitting no wrong doing whatsoever on the Church's part. That was a step I have to respect because it has been centuries in the waiting. Of course, that said, he did condemn the child abuse scandals because misconduct of clergy has always been a part of history I personally have found no evidence that this pope did anything to hide anything. I believe the pope has many enemies whom present their assumptions as facts. I disagree that the clergy or members of the catholic church needed to be reminded that using the church, as sanctuary for the continued abuse of innocent children is wrong. I have not read everything on the scandals but no one in this discussion has presented any details on the sources of information that would blemish this popes legacy .It is encouraging that even nonbelievers expected so much from this vicar of Christ. It would be a contradiction to accept the pope as the vicar of Christ and say that he did not condemn the act of sin
Santa Maria mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen