Is Free Will Possible?

Free will could be predicted by use of determinism to a degree, but it will never be 100% accurate.

If it was life would be pretty boring.

Free (adj):

1. Not controlled, restricted, or regulated by any external thing
2. Not, or no longer, physically bound or restrained, for example, as a prisoner or in slavery
3. Not subject to censorship or control by a ruler, government, or other authority, and enjoying civil liberties
4. Not ruled by a foreign country or power
5. Performed or written without being subjected to traditional conventions or restraints
6. Not subject to or affected by something specified, especially something undesirable
(There are 24 definitions; I wont go into them all, that pretty much sums it up)

Will (n):

1. The part of the mind with which somebody consciously decides things
2. The power to make decisions
3. The use of the mind to make decisions about things
4. The determination to do something
5. A desire or inclination to do something
6. The attitude or feelings somebody has toward somebody or something
7. What a person or group, especially one in authority, wants to happy (formal)

Free Will (n):

1. The ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination

The way I see it, everyone has their “will,” meaning their opinion or decision regarding anything at all. It is never really “free” of the world around it, because the world around it is the very influence that allows one to MAKE a decision or HAVE an opinion. Ones “will” is also influenced by their very own personality and conscience (which is always influenced by society and upbringing), it is not unbiased, therefore, no will is totally “free” in a definitions sense. I must say I agree with Mr. Spett on this one.

I agree with Kaitlin 100%.

If you look at it from God's point, there's no such thing, because everything that happens, God has a hand in. (Even the sparrow does not fall from its nest without the Lord's eye). However, from man's point, we really have no idea WHAT God has planned, but we can be sure that whatever we do is not absent from the eye of God.

Think about this: ever wanted to do something, like take a vacation, or play a game of basketball outside or something, and then it rains, or there's a storm? Well, you made a decision to carry out this plan, but God had something else in mind for you. That's why "Free Will" isn't really "free." In my opinion, there's no such thing as a "free" will.

~Ciao Lipton

Nicely stated Lipton and Kaitlin, I agree :o)

Lipton, i think you are a decent dude, and i respect people of faith in these hard times.

But when i look at your posts, especially the one above, i can't help thinking that kind of believe has very little place in a philisophical discussion...because in your mind, it's all in the hands of anothers will.

God controls nothing, if he did, then he wasted his time dying on the cross, or it was a trick..because i was sure he did it to cleanse us of our sins and give us a fresh start in order that we might prove ourselves by the application of our "divine" free will.

Doesn't make sense for a God to give us free will, make a big deal about it and then control everything. I've said this before, but if you take a lab rat, place it in a maze and then use every trick, natural phenonmenon and encouragement or discouragement to get it to do what you want....you can't very well say it was the free will of the rat if it made it out can you?

And seeing as the world is nothing like how God would have it,based on the assumption of his preferences from the commandments, unless he is a sadist, i'd wager God doesn't control anything.

If you want to come back at me on this....please don't quote the bible, or just say general things about Gods plan and humanities lack of comprehension...use logic and reason...please.

As to the discussion....i think it's a bit of both...determinism is quite easy to understand, and you'd think, with a healthy dose of psychology, not action would be a suprise to those in power...but that clearly is not the case...and so even though every decision we've made has a huge effect on the sequential decisions that come after it....there has to be an element of free will....there has to be....i've gotta believe we can all break free of our past habits and programming.

Kevin:

1) I don't ever remember saying that we have free will, nor do I remember saying God gave it to us.
2) You cannot logicaly explain how God works.

"...because in your mind, it's all in the hands of anothers will."

But is it not? Again, I use this example: If you wanted to take a vacation, or do something outside, and then it rains (preventing you from doing it), your will wasn't the most free, now, was it? It was all in the hands of a higher being.

Ismail:

"...jesus' father as god and his mother a mortal, does'nt that make him a demi-god..."

No. As Jesus said, "I and My Father are One." They are equal in power, and equal in rank. The only difference is that Jesus came down to earth in the form of man to act as a final sacrifice for all mankind... Of, course, as I've been told, the belief of Islam does not believe Jesus was the Son of God, so I'm not sure how me explaining to you all of this really is necessary... Besides, all of this is an entirely different discussion.

~Ciao Lipton

Eh?....Lipton, not for the first time..i cannot find the thread of logic in your point...it starts raining and suddenly our free will is being subverted by God?....There are rational scientific explanations for the changes in weather, and they have nothing to do with God crying...or deciding to ruin somones day with a bit of water...that is rediculous.

I think you are failing to address my fundamental point, now i don't expect you to agree with me...but it looks like you aren't even listening.

Why would God give us free will like the bible says, and by that i mean the free will to choose as we please, and then purposefully do all these things to us and our surroundings...like messing with the weather?...Explain to me why? It doesn't make sense....you can't give something free will and then influence that free will and still call it as much.

And if you so much as mention, mysterious ways...i'll mod you so bad not even your Mother would recognise your post.

Kevin:

First: Show me where the Bible says, "Men have free will."

Secondly: "it starts raining and suddenly our free will is being subverted by God?....There are rational scientific explanations for the changes in weather, and they have nothing to do with God crying...or deciding to ruin somones day with a bit of water...that is rediculous."

It's ridiculous that God can send rain onto a land? Yes, there's a scientific reason for it, but that's because science is man's way of interpreting the world. There's a scientific explanation for just about everything. However, just because almost anything can be explained by science, does that mean God has no part in what happens? Are you trying to imply that science is a being in itself, and that science does everything apart from God? If you are implying this, could we not take it further and say that God IS this being?

I think Kaitlin illustrated what I was trying to say: We can make decisions, and hold to ideas, but events out of our control (such as weather) can so change those decisions. In my mind, and in my belief, God is the One behind all of these events.

~Ciao Lipton

Ismail:

"Lipton, in order for me to become more wise and intelligent on how to live my life, i have to be open to different religions"

Alright. I just wasn't too sure how recieving you would be. Most people fly off the handle when someone tries to tell them a belief contrary to theirs, and accuse the teller of "forcing religion down their throat."

Really, this segment of this belief system is not obviously tied to ethics, so I don't think you'll find too many ethical reforms, or other, in this.

Firstly, I believe in the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. There are many different analogies for this. Take, for instance, an egg. There's the shell, the yolk, and the white, but they are all one egg. Same with God. There is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but it's all one God.

Secondly, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. As God said once Jesus was baptized, "This is my Son, of whom I am well pleased."

Being a Trinity, all three parts must be equal, so Jesus is not a demi-god, to God the Father. Each part of the trinity plays its own part in life. Sure, God's part and Jesus's part seem obvious: ruler, and saviour, respectively. However, the Holy Spirit is the one working mainly behind the scenes of everything. If you've ever watched those televised "healing sessions" (or whatever they are), they sometimes speak of being able to "feel the Spirit moving in you." I guess you could say that the Holy Spirit is the One that softens men's hearts, so they can recieve Jesus, and accept God the Father as their ruler.

I hope this made more sense.

~Ciao Lipton

I belive we have free will.

Although trends can be predicted, you cannot predict everything. Chaos reigns supreme at the end of the day.

Life is a test and every decision we have to make at every roundabout life throws at us reinforces that belief in me.

Achte, it's ok anyway..we can do whatever we want...check this out...

""3Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves."
Ephesians 1:4-6 [NIV]

This rocks, this basically means that Lipton was right...God is controlling everything....like every action i do is controlled by God in some way....and you know what this means right?...diminished accountability!...WOO HOO!!...it's an interesting paradox that because God is controlling me in every way..I am now more free to do as i please.

How can i really be called a sinner if i'm being influenced?...it wouldn't hold up in court...and the good book does say, as on earth as it is in heaven.

Pass me that semi automatic!!!yeah!

haha, Kevin, it's times like these I'm 100% sure of my love and adoration for you.

Seriously, I thought I had issues with Christians BEFORE I began posting on the boards.

Now I just have more examples of why religion makes life more complicated and people more anal.

Dont get me wrong, I love all of you, Bible thumper or not. I just find life's simpler determining your own understanding of the Universe.

St Paul who was stoned off his ass on his way to persecute Chrsitians, or was it knocked off of his horse? anyway he had this to say about freedom; My brothers, remember that you have been called to live in freedom. -but not a freedom that gives free rein to the flesh. Out of Love, place yourselves at one anothers service[Gal 5:13]

Kevin:

Your theory is off...

God has two wills:

Permissive will (as shown in Romans 1:24)
Divine will (as shown in the rest of the Bible)

Now, please bear with me, as I might have some difficulty explaining this:

No man does good by nature. If not for God and His mercy, no one would ever do good. It is our nature. Want proof?

You don't need to teach a baby how to be angry, or a three-year-old how to lie, or how to be selfish or how to hit his sister when she does something he doesn't like. Guess what, though? You need to teach children to share, and NOT to hit, or lie, etc... It is our nature to sin.

God cannot be the author of sin (in other words, He does not cause it, or make it). This is proven by the fact that God is perfectly Holy, and, therefore, cannot even be in the presence of sin.

God's Divine Will is what keeps us from having our own Free Will. This will of God's is what makes our lives move forward, and what makes Time move forward. This will is what makes things happen.

God's permissive will is what allows us to sin. No, He doesn't MAKE us sin, this will of His, permits us to sin. Like a mother giving permission to a child to go outside. The mother didn't MAKE the kid go outside. He CHOSE to (Not saying that going outside is a sin).

Okay, so if God doesn't MAKE people sin, but our actions are already known beforehand, who is to blame? Who is responsible for the actions that we do under God's permissive will?

We still are. How?

We are influenced by Satan. To be influenced is to have no will at all. That is why we have no free will. Because our initial nature is to do evil, and we are influenced by Satan to do this evil. All the time are we influenced by Satan: Christians and non-Christians alike. The difference is that since Christians are in the care of God, Satan's influence is not as strong over them.

If you're still confused, I don't know how else I can explain it. I understand it, but I can't explain it very well...

~Ciao Lipton

In truth Lipton, i was never confused, i most likely know the bible almost as well as you do, i did study it...religiously, for quite some time when i was younger.

I hate people diminishing responsibility away from themselves onto spiritual third parties. It doesn't matter all that much if they blame the evil in the world on Satan, or their bad attitude or luck on Karma...or their sore bottom on Aliens...it's cowardly and misguided...especially the Satan co-out....it's kinda hard not to be slightly disrespectful when you talk about Satan as being the reason people do bad things...or i should say the main influence behind them, because of course like most blanket statements made by religion and it's followers...there is no way i can really disprove what you're saying by logic or reason...any attempt to steer people away from what i percieve as a most delusional thought pattern is only seen as my own thoughts being under the sway of the horned one.

Damn it...i was so sure i was as pure as the driven snow....I guess some folk are beyond religious redemption.

I just don't get how we can sin if we have no free will, it doesn't make sense.

I agree, Kev. I thought the whole free will thing was cemented when jesus went into the desert and resisted all of the temptations and get out clauses that the devil could offer.

That's why it is a trial of faith, the opportunities are there, it's only because we CHOOSE not to take up easy route free will presents that makes faith as powerful as it is.

If faith came in a pre-paid package that anyone could get from their local chemist the power of God would be worthless, right?

Amen.