The age old philosophical question...

Can't say I didn't try.

yeah it does make a sound if you are somewhere else in the woods and cutting down trees it makes a sound so obviously even if you arent there it still makes a sound.
~Charity~

You will never know... cause "no-ones there".

ISMAIL:

Here we go again...

Your REASONING behind the action (in this case, plagiarism) is by no means, a justification FOR that action. I don't care how you want to explain to me WHY you plagiarized. The fact is: you plagiarized. In fact, plagiarism has no justifiable means.

KOT:

Ismail's a hypocrite. He jumps on other people's errors, but seems to condone his own. I've already been down this road with him several times, yet he still refuses to see it.

~Ciao Lipton

ISMAIL:

“Kot:When will you learn, i guess never it seems, grow up. You are acting like a little child.But that would be an insult to children with half the brain you possess.”

And then…

“How pathetic, KOT, still angry that i am much more better than you. Well ofcourse i am, why else would you look for anything else but my spelling and grammer....”

1) Who's being the immature child, here? "Still angry that I am much more better than you." Don't get me started.
2) (The First quote should read like this:

"Kot: When will you learn? I guess never it seems. Grow up. You are acting like a little child. However, that would be an insult to children with half the brain you possess."

and the second should be:

"How pathetic, KOT. Still angry that i am much better than you. Well of course I am! Why else would you look for anything else but my spelling and grammar?"

Do you not have "?" on your keyboard? You never use one... Just wondering...

~Ciao Lipton

I put commentary in here, but decided to edit it out.

As far as I'm concerned, the issue is settled. You are in the wrong, Ismail.

End of story.

Morgan, like doesn't come into it really... you can be the best liked person in the world, but without (humble)respect it doesn't mean much. No one respects a carpet, being a carpet gets you nowhere (except at the savoy where it gets you up the stairs).

I happen to like you just fine, but more importantly I respect you, your poetry and your views.

Well we all know whos silence WOULDNT kill.

Seriously, as this is a literary site, plagiarism is a big deal. If you dont agree, then at least dont make yourself look like an idiot, and spare us your ever so deep thoughts on writing.

Silence:

So you are saying that if people plagiarize we should not say anything at all? We should just allow them to do it and ignore it? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. As was mentioned before this is a literary site and plagiarism should NEVER be tolerated. How would you like it if someone plagiarized your work? It's nice to know that if someone was out there plagiarizing my stuff, there are people who actually take enough pride in writing to stand up for me and my work (like the people on this site) when I am not there to do so myself.

Silence:

Be silent, please.

If someone plagiarizes, it is all up to those who REALLY care (obviously NOT you) to make sure it doesn't happen again. Kaitlin's right: this IS a literary site, and plagiarism is right up there with murder in the non-writing world, just about.

Ismail:

Did you die?

~Ciao Lipton

Ismail:

"What Lipton, oh no i didn't,"

Was it truly necessary to ask me, "what?"

"was just thinking to myself, how foolish it is to fight on something so foolish and trivial"

You plagiarized. There's nothing "trivial" about that.

"As you could see i was letting you all make yourself fight amogs yourselves, so to speak."

YOU were making us fight with each other? Ha! That's funny.

"Again Lipton you can see how foolish this matter is, if you want to talk about something the least with intellect.Let me know, because frankly i don't want to have another argument."

I got lost here... You put a period in the middle of a sentence, and it didn't make any sense. That whole quote consists of a run-on and a some fragments. It should read:

"Again, Lipton, you can see how foolish this matter is. If you want to talk about something [then you put some random words here, and I can't understand you], let me know, because, frankly, I don't want to have another argument."

Want to avoid another argument? I really don't think that will happen unless you stop posting on the boards.

"And thanks for calling me a hypocrite, i like the notion of being a hypocrite in an internet.. HA HA HA."

1) You're welcome
2) I don't have to know you, or anything about you, to know that you're a hypocrite. What you do and say on the boards is enough.

~Ciao Lipton

PS: You still haven't cited a valid source.

Ismail:

This is a quote from some time ago, but there is so much ignorance oozing from it, I had to quote it:

"Again, Lipton.Like i said to bret in another forum, i am a newbie in sematics, an overzealous one at that. I do know the degree of plagerizing another's work, i also do know that i did in some aspect plagerised, yet i did not call it my work, now did i."

I don't care if you're a newbie at semantics. You're a supposed writer. And plagiarism is plagiarism, no matter HOW you do it, or "to what degree," you do it. That is the must bull-crap excuse I've ever heard from someone on this subject.

"Plagerism is basically taking another's work as your own"

Yes it is, and you know what? In your plagiarized posts, you never say, "I got this from a website," or "this isn't really mine." You just post it and leave it at that. That is the same as saying it's your work. You left it as a normal post.

Do you know WHY we aren't required to put things like, "I hereby contribute this post as my own work/research."

Here's the answer:

Everything we post is supposed to be OURS anyway.

"yet i did not know we had to cite the website."

All I can say is "DUH!" How many research papers have you done in your life? In any and ALL research papers, you are to give your sources. All over the boards, more in the intellectual conversations, when people look up a word, they even cite Webster! Do not sit there and say, "Well, I didn't know. I'm new to semantics!" That's a bullcrap, cop-out reason, and doesn't justify what you did, anyway.

~Ciao Lipton

"Again i say, you look foolish and childish in which you are calling me names. But again, what must i say, i can be intelligent and talk to you in a civil manner, but then again, talking to you is like talking to a pebble."

This is purely an unbased opinion about me. I don't care what you think of me. It doesn't change the fact that you plagiarized. Nor does it change the fact that you are a hypocrite.

"Yes you don't know me, and again i say, call me what you like, i don't care because frankly you have shown me how childish and foolish you are."

Is all you can do is come back and call me childish, foolish, and then insult my intelligence? For once, give me a post that has something worth talking about. You're turning this discussion into a name-calling fight, like you did the last one, and the one before that. You are avoiding what's really going on, Ismail...

"I suggest you keep your foul mouth shut, lest you want to see what you actually wrote. But i guess after reading this, it would already be edited..Ha."

There's nothing wrong with the quote:

"You plagiarized. There's nothing "trivial" about that."

And if you still think so, perhaps you would like to show me what I did wrong instead of acting like you know far better than anyone else on the boards.

"i explained it and thought of it. If you want to call me plageriser for that, it is your choice. "

YOUR REASON FOR [insert action here] DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE ACTION! You are a plagiarizer, end of discussion.

"I have cited the website"

It's a dead website, and I severely doubt that it just haphazardly shut down.

~Ciao Lipton

PS: I suggest, Ismail, that you quit fighting about an already lost topic. This is advice, mind you.

Oh, and for everyone, here's this:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Z8-cOV8JTNoJ:cranialspew.com/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi%3Fentry_id%3D55+%22If+you+put+a+tape+recorder+by+the+tree+and+then+play+it+back,+you%27ll+hear+the+sound!%22+Well,+guess+what,+the+tape+recording+only+records+the+vibrations,+which+are+sent+through+the+air+upon+playback.+Think+of+a+needle+on+a+record,+it+is+merely+vibrating+to+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Yeah, I just copied and pasted some of Ismail's quote, clicked "cached," and got here... to another discussion board about the exact same thing. Way to go, Ismail. I especially want to point you all to the very bottom of the page.

~Ciao Lipton

Here's reason for ya:

You're a plagiarizer, because you took someone else's ideas as your own.

I don't care WHY you did it. I don't care WHY so-and-so plagiarized someone else's poem. The fact is, they did.

~Ciao Lipton

Ismail:

You only wish that I would envy you. Believe me, I wouldn't want to be you, nor do I desire anything you have.

" did not say it was my work, if you scrolled up, you would see it. "

In the original post you made (with all the said plagiarized things) you NEVER gave credit to anyone else. This is the same as claiming it as yours. If someone puts a poem up on this site, that isn't theirs, and they don't put WHOSE it is, it's called "plagiarism." Same thing with, oh, everything else.

Here's how our good buddy, Webster (that's all you had to do to cite) defines "plagiarize:"

": to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source
intransitive senses
: to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source "

Take special note of definition 2.

I think it's funny how all you can do is come back and call me envious and judgmental. There you go, again... Avoiding the topic at hand...

~Ciao Lipton

QUOTED FROM ISMAIL (this is called a cite):

"The answer to the question is both yes and no Kaitlin, depending on how you define "sound."

Definition 1: Sound is the waves created in the air by vibration of an object.
By this definition, yes, the tree makes sounds, because it makes these vibrations.

Definition 2: Sound is the interpretation of these vibrations in your ear and sent by impulses to your brain.
By this definition, no, the tree makes vibrations
but no ears are around to interpret them into "sound.". Here is a good quote
"If you put a tape recorder by the tree and then play it back, you'll hear the sound!" Well, guess what, the tape recording only records the vibrations, which are sent through the air upon playback. Think of a needle on a record, it is merely vibrating to the bumps and grooves on the record, which make the air pulse, which enters your ear. Is this vibration a sound? Again, depends on which definition you choose. I read "if I talk and you're not here to hear it then is if making sound?" Well, duh, you're making sound because you're there to hear it! "I'm sure there are several animals in the woods that could hear the tree fall..." Assuming there are NO animals or any living thing around, does it make a sound? That is the question. If there is an animal there, then yes, the animal can hear it. We all know that. The question only applies when nothing is around.
I think it's safe to say that we all agree that a tree will make vibrations in the air regardless of whether anybody is there or not. Correct?

Then, the real question is, are these vibrations sounds? Or do they need to be passed through the whole ear process to become sounds? Both answers are reasonable. It depends on how sound is defined!
Here's another good one. "What if a deaf person talks, are they making sound? Of course they are!" They are making vibrations with their voice box, yes, but are they making sounds? If you go by definition 1, then yes he's making a sound, if you go by definition 2, then no, he's not. Everything everybody is arguing in here can all come down to how you define sound, period. If a deaf guy talks and somebody else is there, the deaf guy doesn't hear it, and the other guy does. Therefore, the vibrations were interpreted in the physically able man's head into a sound, whereas the deaf man's hearing system did not interpret the vibration. If sound is only present after it is interpreted, then there is only a sound when there is a man with the deaf guy. As soon as he walks away, there is no sound. If sound is the actual vibration in the air, then there is a sound present whether or not the man is there.
Is it the vibration in the air?
Is it what our brain receives after these vibrations are translated by the hearing system?

I think this was meant not as an extension of physics, but as a thought- provoking question, no matter how you see it, all the answers are correct Kaitlin."

Never once did you give your source. You did, later, though, once Kaitlin and Bret beat it out of you, but even then, the site given was simply not good enough.

I would like everyone, who visits that site I gave, to check the date at the top of the page. Yeah... It says, "January."

~Ciao Lipton

"but explaining it to you is like trying to move a boulder with telekinesis"

1) If I had telekinesis, it wouldn't be very hard to move a boulder.
2) You haven't tried explaining to me anything. You just keep comiong back and calling me "childish," or "foolish," or "judgmental." Sure, you've tried explaining WHY you did it, but I haven't heard a sincere admittance until now. In fact, you couldn't seem to understand that NOT mentioning the author is the same as plagiarizing.

"Well ofcourse, because i did plagerise by not mentioning the person at hand..."

Thank you Ismail, that's all you had to say.

I'm done with you, for right now. All you had to do was confess, and give the citation (which I had to do, FOR you). Now it's all been done. The case is closed.

And really, I don't care if you think I'm ignorant or not. I'll just feed you the same words you fed me. "You only judge me because you envy me."

~Ciao Lipton

Ismail:

"i COULD have edited what i wrote earlier, but i didn't. I simply explained my answers in a justified way. Kaitlin and Bret has or had nothing to do with it."

I don't care if you COULD have lied. You didn't and that's good. However, you did, in a sense, lie anyway, by plagiarizing. Oh, and Kaitlin was the first one to question your posts, and Bret helped, so they had much of a lot to do with it.

"I did not cite it because i did not know i was plagerising. If i did i would cover my tracks don't you think."

You didn't know copying someone else's words was plagiarizing? That is the mere definition, my friend.

~Ciao Lipton

Ismail:

"Any more words you like to add...Hmm"

Just a few...

"Ever heard of metaphor."

1) There should be a "?" at the end of that.
2) Yes, I have, but I was just showing you it was a bad metaphor.

"I called you foolish because basically i am giving you the answers right there, and you are calling it bullshit. Which frankly is quite tedious"

Answers to what? I haven't asked you any questions, have I? Again, I don't care WHY you plagiarized. Your reasons behind the act do not justify the act.

"I called you ignorant because you accuse me of something like the past, and then expect me to take it without a fight"

1) I never said I didn't expect you to fight back.
2) Unless you admit the things you've done in the past, then it is still up for debate. You still lied, which you haven't admitted to, yet, and you still acted like a hypocrite, to which you haven't admitted yet.

I still cannot fathom the fact that you think that COPYING SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK was not plagiarism. It makes no sense in any way. That is what plagiarism is! I've always been told, ever since third grade that plagiarism is stealing someone else's work as your own. That's what Webster even tells us.

~Ciao Lipton

The lifting from another site aside, Ismail, if you are studing to be a lawyer then you have to be familiar with a "Cheating and Plagiarism Proforma". You have to fill one in with any essay or work that will be marked and graded for your degree.

I only this because my wife graduates in October and I've had to print them off for her more times than I care to remember. Now, she works in Radiography, which admittedly isn't Law, but all degrees in the UK require them.

Here it is in detail:

XXXXXXX COLLEGE
SCHOOL OF HEALTH
Department of Radiography

BSc (Hons) Diagnostic Radiography
BSc (Hons) Oncology and Radiotherapy Technology

CHEATING AND PLAGIARISM

Cheating and plagiarism are regarded as extremely serious matters. Evidence of either can result in severe penalties.

Cheating is any infringement of assessment regulations. See your student handbook for further details.

Plagiarism is quoting from a published or unpublished source, including the work of another student, without appropriate acknowledgement and referencing as specified in the student handbook.

We therefore require that you sign the proforma below to verify that the assignment you are submitting is all your own work and that you have acknowledged all your sources of reference.

Name of Student……………………………………………………………………….

Subject / Module Title…………………………………………………………………

…………………………………………………………………………………………..

Assignment Title……………………………………………………………………….

…………………………………………………………………………………………..

The above named assignment is all my own work and all sources of reference have been duly acknowledged.

Signature………………………………………….. Date……………………………..

MH 6/9/02 – Cheating and Plagiarism Proforma

Ismail:

Oh, I've gotten the hint. You just want me off your back...

The odds are against me, Ismail? How so, when you're trying to defy the mere definition of words?

"Have i plagerised?
I have in some aspects, but thought that it was evidence to make my case more factual"

Your case is now more factual? Well of course it is! It's now more factual that you have plagiarized.

You are a liar because you told someone of your past, in order to help her, and then when JPM brought it up, you said it never happened. That is a lie, no matter WHY you tried to "quell" it. There is no justification for this act, so stop trying to act like there is. You said one thing, and then something completely opposite of it moments later. THAT IS, BY DEFINITION, A LIE!

You are a hypocrite because (at the time that this discussion was going on) you condoned your own errors, but quickly jumped on other people. Even still, when people correct you of your errors, all you say is, "Thank you," and move on, and don't even go back and change them. Then you go right back, and make the same mistakes again. That is the same as condoning your own errors. I'm not talking about your past, Ismail.

As for not knowing that COPYING SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK was plagiarism, that can only prove how ignorant you really are, because that is the mere definition of plagiarism.

~Ciao Lipton

Ismail, if you know what plagiarism copyright infringement laws are then you must have known what you were doing all along. The main reason these proformas were made and have to be signed is because of the ever increasing massed information on the internet and the handy tool known as 'cut and paste'. In your student handbook you WILL have something like this:

Plagiarism

You are reminded that all work submitted as part of the requirements for any examination (including coursework) of Imperial College and the University of London must be expressed in your own words and incorporate your own ideas and judgements.

Plagiarism, that is the presentation of another person’s thoughts or words as though they were your own, must be avoided, with particular care in coursework, essays and reports written in your own time. Note that you are encouraged to read and criticise the work of others as much as possible. You are expected to incorporate this in your thinking and in your coursework and assessments. But you must acknowledge and label your sources.

Direct quotations from the published or unpublished work of others, from the internet, or from any other source must always be clearly identified as such. A full reference to their source must be provided in the proper form and quotation marks used. Remember that a series of short quotations from several different sources, if not clearly identified as such, constitutes plagiarism just as much as a single unacknowledged long quotation from a single source. Equally, if you summarise another person’s ideas or judgements, figures, diagrams or software, you must refer to that person in your text, and include the work referred to in your bibliography. Departments are able to give advice about the appropriate use and correct acknowledgement of other sources in your own work.

The direct and unacknowledged repetition of your own work which has already been submitted for assessment can constitute self-plagiarism. Where group work is submitted, this should be presented in a way approved by your department. You should therefore consult your tutor or course director if you are in any doubt about what is permissible. You should be aware that you have a collective responsibility for the integrity of group work submitted for assessment.

The use of the work of another student, past or present, constitutes plagiarism. Where work is used without the consent of that student, this will normally be regarded as a major offence of plagiarism.

Failure to observe these rules may result in an allegation of cheating. Cases of suspected plagiarism will be dealt with under the College’s Procedure for Dealing with Examination Offences and may result in a penalty being taken against any student found guilty.

Forget everything else and just concentrate on the first two paragraphs. This would also have been taught and explained at some point.

I am not accusing you of anything Ismail, we already know this to be the case, after all.

As for ignorance and excuses...

"I had no idea that i was plagerising."

As you study law, you, above all others will know the following phrase: Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Ismail:

I don't care WHY you did anything. The fact is, you did them, and you won't admit to it.

~Ciao Lipton

Silence:

The main reason why people go make all these topics saying, "_____ IS A PLAGIARIZER!!!!" is so everyone knows. It puts them on everyone's radar, and really, someone who plagiarizes SHOULD be noticed by other people. It's a shameful act.

~Ciao Lipton

Lipton- you know what, I hate to be rude about this, but I think he's got the point and he isn't going to let his pride be hurt anymore. He's not worth it. He plagarized and he knows it. He doesn't listen to the truth and he understands the consequences. If he gets in trouble later its his problem not ours.
~anne~

Ismail- I don't want to fight with you about this, because I will never get anywhere and I'm not going to join your side either. However, you do need to be more careful. If you had given us the web site you got the information from it wouldn't have hurt your pride that much. If you understand you were wrong then that is what is important. You did plagerize whether you did it on purpose or not. From what I understand this isn't the first time, but I may have misunderstood. You can get yourself in a lot of trouble if you make this a habit, but it's your life to ruin not mine.
~anne~

"If you don't know a person, and you have seen something that you might think is plagerism, the person does not know this, will you stand there and say he is false?"

As you agree that ignorance of the law is no excuse, yes, even though I have not said you lied. It matters not how well you know someone, seeing their actions in your presence is enough. I didn't think it was plagiarism, I KNEW it was and that's what makes all the difference.

I never said you have or have not lied, and at no point have I judged. I simply stood by fact and made comment on what you should know according to the information you have let us know. That information being your studying of law and the implications of doing such a course.

I readily accept your reason stated in that you plead ignorance of plagiarism as your excuse ("I didn't know...").
Yet at the same time you admit ignorance is no excuse. So you can see why I am confused.

Calling me (and others) ignorant and judgemental when you know as much about us as we do you is neither smart nor clever and is just as ignorant and judgemental, Ismail.

Ismail:

"Who the hell are you to judge me like that, Lipton shut your judgmental words up, and talk to me when you have at least the sense to not sound foolish."

That statement was not a judgment. You seem to be digressing again, and just coming back to call me names. Let's grow out of that, shall we?

"I gave my answer
Did not know i was plagerising in an aspect
Gave my reasons"

1) I don't need to know anything about you to claim what I have. I can tell everything just by what you've said in the forums.
2) Your reasons for doing these actions are not justifications for these actions. Stop saying that they are. Here's your logic in a different senario:

"You murdered this man?"
"I might have..."
"Did you or not?"
"I did, because he treated me wrongly."
"But you did murder him...?"
"STOP JUDGING ME!"

Yes, it's an extreme, but it's the same principle. The reason for doing the action is no justification FOR the action. Since you're studying law, you should know that...

As for all of your posts, yes they are just insults. All you have done is come back and call me judgmental, idiot, foolish, and whatever else you can think of. Come back with something that actually contributes next time.

Now, in your next post, give something constructive, and I CHALLENGE you to not use any form of insult (whether you THINK it's an insult or not) and actually deal with the matter at hand.

~Ciao Lipton

Oh, and for the last time:

I don't need to know anything ABOUT you, to have claimed what I've claimed. When someone steals something, does the victim need to know anything about the criminal in order to make a claim?

The reasoning behind the action, does not justify the action itself.

Ok this has gone on long enough.

Lockios Maximos.