Perfect society.

I work with young children and adults who have various learning and physical problems. I love my job and have developed many strong bonds with the people i work with...sometimes though, when i'm very tired or someone is being particularly challenging i look down at some of the kids i work with who have quite severe disabilities and wonder why they are alive?...what quality of life do they have, what measure of independance, understanding and joy?...very little by my reckoning...and just recently i've begun thinking about the cost of supporting them in money, manpower and resources.

It's a dark set of thoughts...but sometimes i wonder if it would be better all round if they had never been allowed to live, all thinngs considered.

i'd love to hear what some of you think about this.

kevin.

Agreed. I don't see why we support them when we are only prolonging a life that is void of understanding and joy...

I'm not sure what to think on the matter of what to do about it though.... It's a complicated decision filled with values and morals.

Before I say anything, can I point out that what I do say is just opinion. If what I say does actually offend anyone, I apologise now...

IF a human is suffering, is unable to speak, eat properly... (the list could go on) then should they be forced into living?? I know of someone who suffered a severe diabetic coma merely because he didn't realise that he was diabetic. Now he is unable to communicate in anyway, eat, drink, move or do anything other than look you in the eyes and tell you he's suffering. What kind of life is that? I think it is unfair and cruel to put someone through that kind of torment. Saying that though, what other way is there? It would be against the law to take his life as he is able to breathe without the use of machines. It breaks my heart to see.

I think it is a subject that should be looked on as it has been done throughout history.

When I say that I refer to survival of the fittest, which is something that doesn't mean much any more. I think you have to earn comfort, happiness and the right to an enduring life. If you cannot provide for yourself or others should you be allowed to survive?

That said, if I had a son or daughter who was mentally or physically disabled I'd protect them to the death and try to make life as comfortable and fun as possible. Two faced and contradictory, I know, but so very true at the same point.

Kevin, I understand where you are coming from, but you can't judge utility (measure of happiness) from your point of view in this situation. Really, the only way to know is to find out the opinion of those people or kids you are working with. If they say yes it is worth living, then no body else should question that at all, not even the parents of these kids.

Brett is the only one i think really hit the point (with the exception of Kevin who asked us our opinions). You cannot judge happiness and life from outside the box in this case; you must be inside the box in that position. Just because a person is in pain, or suffering doesn't mean they don't enjoy life and aren't happy.

Let me ask this of all of you. If you were to lose the use of your hearing, or your sight, or maybe lost the use of your legs and/or arms, would you opt to end your own life because you can't experience it like everyone else?

I just have to say my husband has a cousin who is paralized from his neck down and I sometimes have wondered what kind of life he has . And the answer I give myself is.... He still sees , speaks , breathes and has feelings . His heart can feel love as well as sorrow . And more than anything else he is a human being . Life to him is still precious .

Luanne, that makes sense... It would take a lot of will power to get over paralysis I couldn't begin to imagine the pain and heartbreak caused.

Would it be down to the individual (Assume they are able to) to decide how life is when things like this happen? I mean, if someone has an accident and becomes paralysed life is in that persons hands... it is up to them if they can stay happy or not right? After all, as Luanne says "his heart can feel love as well as sorrow". Obviously, those less fortunate who cannot speak or think for themselves, well I think that goes without saying.

Should I say something....

Well I guess...

I had a good friend who had cereberal palsy, back in my old home. Everyone always pitied him, rather than just treating him as a person who is capable of doing things himself.

These people do not need pity, or mass amount of help...They need understanding and they need acceptance.

Kevin: I am guessing that you felt like you had to take care of every facet to your "friends" life. If you truly had bonds with them, you would not even think it.

But then it is you after all...So what am I saying.

First off i am only talking about people who are born with severe disabilities to the extent the are completely dependant on others for all aspects of their life. I work with children who can't see or speak, are physically unable and as such have severe learning difficulties. I know i can't make judgements on their right to life, or i guess their quality of life appreciation..I mean i choose to work so that they have the best life possible and i love my work.

It's a difficult subject as i knew it would be....all i know is i'm not sure i'd want to be alive if i was in that state. Sounds harsh i know. It's just all the thing i love about having a body and being alive, almost all of the they don't have.

Ismail, are you saying that by considering this issue I am at fault? Because the last few line of your post seem to suggest I am morally wrong for thinking about this...and that you expect nothing less of me.

If that is the case, you are being so rude I'd have to mod myself to express it.

In some ways yes Kevin, when you thought that you yourself, imagined these people not to exist because of their disabilities.

That is morally and ethically wrong. Just because they don't have the advantages that you do, do not mean that they are suffering because of it.

Example: You are a moderator, correct. And I am but a member in this site. Now you have advantages, that I do not. Am I suffering because of it. Nope. Exactly. People if they are born with a disability, they adapt through it. That is life.

Or am I wrong here.

Sorry in advance if I offended you Kevin...

ismail, your comparison between being a non mod in this site and being severely disabled, is a bad one...i won't say any more than that because i don't want to get into a personal fued with you in this discussion.

I will say this much though, No Where in my post did i say that anyone with a disability does not exist, not in my mind or anywhere...i don't know how you came up with that statement...but i find it wholly offensive, and to be honest, more indicative of your personal issues with me than any sound thoughts you have on the subject matter.

If you can't serperate your loathing of me from the issues at hand in such a way that anything i post is taken out of context so much that i appear as a truely awful human being...then i think you shouldn't post in this thread.

No offence.

Getting back to the issue...it's not my perception of thier misery that it comes down to....i can tell they are constantly suffering...even just from their physical condition..which is oftentimes painful, and requires drugs and all manner of medical treatments.

how can anyone be even remotely happy in such a situation? Most people find it hard to be cheerful when they have a serious cold or flu..and that is nothing compared to how some of these kids feel 24/7.

“sometimes though, when i'm very tired or someone is being particularly challenging i look down at some of the kids i work with who have quite severe disabilities and wonder why they are alive?...what quality of life do they have, what measure of independance, understanding and joy?...very little by my reckoning...”

“ismail, your comparison between being a non mod in this site and being severely disabled, is a bad one...i won't say any more than that because i don't want to get into a personal fued with you in this discussion.”

My comparison might be bad, but it still explains what I meant. Even if bad or good.

will say this much though, No Where in my post did i say that anyone with a disability does not exist, not in my mind or anywhere...i don't know how you came up with that statement...but i find it wholly offensive, and to be honest, more indicative of your personal issues with me than any sound thoughts you have on the subject matter.”

Sorry I made a mistake, I generalized your post and seen that instead of severally disabled, I mistook it as disabled…

But still my views and opinions are valid, and I will not stand down on them.

“If you can't serperate your loathing of me from the issues at hand in such a way that anything i post is taken out of context so much that i appear as a truely awful human being...then i think you shouldn't post in this thread.”

It is quite sad to see you think I loathe you Kevin, but I don’t. I do not loathe anyone, I assumed that you liked the sarcastic viewpoints I had of you, just as you were with me.

Back to the topic: To think that a “severely” disabled person should not exist in the first place is a horrid thought to think of.

As I said, they may be in pain, but that does not mean they have to not exist to relieve the pain. I think they should live their life, just to show the world, that it takes strength to be alive. It does send a powerful message to those who have the advantages we have, yet end their lives on trivial things.

Kevin... Your work must be hard, though I'm sure incredibly rewarding. I completely hear what you're saying, and I wish I could understand in more depth the suffering that you see. I don't think there is much more I can say about this than what has already been said so I will just read here on out.

^^ Well said Bob, I think I have to agree

My personal opinion is Kevin you have an emensely huge caring heart and it hurts to see these children hurt . But I am sure there are many times that you have walked through that door and a smile has crossd upon the face of one of these children and that itself would be enough to tell me that they feel emotions and one being love .The rewards of a smile are enough to say : you are doing a great job !!

I also have a chronic disease that might in the (hopefully far future ) leave me blind , speachless or perhaps even paralized but to see my children grow up and grandchildren hug and kiss me is enough to give me the will to live ,survive and accept the ways of life. Before being diagnosed I always said I would not want to live if....but it is really surprising how thoughts within your mind will change when faced with the possibility . If ....has become a reality and wouldn't .....has become will ....

But that is just my thoughts , one person in a very huge world .

Bob, with all due respect [and that's quite a lot] I'm not sure you really know what you are talking about. Even with a very positive attitude and bucket loads of compassion, which i usually have..to watch a child die in front of you because their body cannot support itself due to disability, it hard, plain and simple. You feel frustrated and angry that they should be born like this, your heart breaks when they look at you, their eyes full of pain that they can never express in words...and sometimes you don't even know what is hurting them because they cannot show ro tell you.

Compassion, which is love in the end, is vitally important to all things, a job like mine in particular...but no amount of love makes it easy...no more than loving someone makes it easier to part from them...or watch them die...if anything it makes it harder for someone who is compassionate.

But this is getting to be too much about me, and i don't want that.

If someone cannot look after themselves, has a poor quality of life in terms of sensory imput, mental understanding and general health, with no hope of improvement...should they be cared for at great expense and human effort?

That is the question I am interested in..and it's a tough one.

The answer is yes.

I think it is a family matter at the end of the day. Thinking about my previous response I have come to think that looking after those who need near heroic measures to continue breathing is a job only for those who do not see it as a job or career, but an expression of love and compassion.

Should the continued life of one who cannot function take up the lives of those that can?

Ismail, time for you to make a career change. and answer that question again in five years time.

If families have the money, they will pour all of their resources into keeping a loved one alive, and that is their priveledge. It's a shame, but would be a waste of tax dollars to permit, that poor families do not have the same decision to make.

I personally believe it would be best to not keep them around, especially the ones with minimal brain activity. If someone is physically incapacitated but mentally able to answer the question of if they would like to stick around or not themselves, by all means, let them take their destiny into their own hands. The world is getting overpopulated as is.

It truly depends on how disabled the person in question is. And, it is a good source of economic stimulation. One that the health care industry would be sorry to lose, no doubt.