The Rules. [discussion for everyone]

Hey Guys,

so as i'm sure many of you are aware there have been several instances of well observed conflict recently, revolving mainly around the issues of freedom of expression and the breaking of this websites rules and the dreaded penalties they incur.

Speaking as a Mod, I know the rules here are plainly written and very simple to understand yet not everything is black and white, especially with all the variations in language, both cultural and slang wise, place to place and person to person.

For this reason, I want to open up a discussion which I hope all of you will take part in to hopefully sort out how people feel concerning these issues. It would be nice if this didn't turn into another argument as there has been quite enough of that.

To keep it focussed I'll highlight what i believe to be the key questions focussed around two of the rules.

1. Should all potentially offensive words be banned from the site? For example I know people who consider words like Damn, and Bloody offensive. And if not, then how do we come up with a conprehensive list of the words that are not allowed?

2. How do we define what is an insult worthy of a penalty, and what is an assessment of someones character or intelligence, particulary when passionate debates are going on?

3. Freedom of expression, when can it do too far? If there any such thing as too far in a site devoted to writing?

Ok, anyone who cares about these issues please respond, this might just improve this site for everyone.

Thankyou.

Kevin.

All valid points Mike, well explained and backed up by logic and reason.

And whilst i do agree that words can be wrongly interpreted by people on the internet, there are insults and descriptive words, shall we say..that have no place in a adult civilised discussion..most of them are four lettered and describe something sexual. Swearing is ok by me unless it is directed at someone in an agressive way intended to cause upset. And for me the language issue comes down to that. Intent to harm. I wouldn't mod anyone who used a "naughty" word to describe something explaining how strongly they felt about an issue. Simple.

There is the issue of protecting the youth members from such language...but as Mike said, this is common talk most everywhere you go..and it is generally the younger members who swear the most. Are we to take responsibility for that? Or assume we can protect them from the world at large by banning swearing in here?

Literature should not be cencored and niether should sites pertaining to literature. Over the years words have slipped by the cencors and this should continue.

There's nothing wrong with swearing when it's in the right context

Hostility is the calling card of those with lower intellect."

And to tell you the truth, insults or at least profanity do come into the picture when one is deeply offended another.

So if you want to put profanity in your posts, how will you get your message across?

There are a thousand ways to skin a cat, and there is more ways to insult someone and still get your message across..

The fowl language to me is not an issue; however, which the fowl language is used as an attack on a person then it is an issue, mainly because it shows lack of respect.

There are better ways for problems and diasagrremnts to be solved without making personal attacks to an individual.

I for one am guilty of 'agging it on' and telling someone that they need to go back to momma because she has their bottle ready and might want to change their diaper as well.

I know this is not colturly accepted, but it is far better to say something along those lines than to flat bilittle a person and call the every fowl word under the sun.

If I was to say that school is kicking my ass then everyone can accepted the curse word 'ass' without being offended; however, if a said that Sherry Lynn is nothing but a coward and needs her ass kicked from here to ten buck two then it is not acceptable.

The difference is of course in option A I used the word ass in a non threatning and respectful way where as in option B I showed total disrespect and made a verbal (or some would even say abusive) threat. I believe this is what the mods are having problems with.

It is not the fowl languange, but how the language is used. I have seen one person banned for calling me a bitch; yet, I recieved nothing when I replied to him that my name was Ms. Bitch to him.

This is only my opinoin and observation. If only disagree please let me know. And if I get penalized for this well I apoligize.

--Sher

In my opinion we should not resort to the tool of mud slinging any more. If we are focused on rule number one. I confess that I have not always treated my opponents the way I would like to be treated when a discussion elevates, or condescends to an argument. It is Ironical that those of us who are demanding respect are not giving it If we don’t like the message we attack the messenger. We can belittle any ones opinion so many different ways. As far as setting an example, it is mostly a two edged sword. The virtual reality we create in these forums can use the technology of being connected with the world. In the rules of the old west when you disrespected someone and called them out it was always a good idea to assume your advisory had a loaded weapon. But we are not discussing the rules of reality. I find the rules of these forums would be very efficient at shielding us from opinions if taken to the extreme

I am not stating in anyway that I have not in some way broken every rule in this forum
I originally entered these forums to deliver messages that were pertinent to the golden rule. But I have no doubt many will find that rule offensive

I could without using a swear word, totally rip someoone to pieces in here, and i could just as easily do it without being so offensive that i would earn myself a penality point. But would i deserve one? Yes i would because my intention would be to attack the personality of another person.

This is how i judge penalities when i come across complaints...no matter the language i look at the intent of the person using it..and i think that should be the new focus of the foul language rule. It's strange but i bet if you took the rule away people wouldn't swear much more than they do now...you'd certainly not get so many people placing challenges to us mods by having the word "bastard" in a post right at the end.

And why is it people in here assume that if you do swear in a post, your intelligence and writing ability are suddenly diminished? How irrational is that?

I for one am prepared to stand up as a mod and say i'm not going to enforce rule 7...but i will come down hard on anyone who blatantly, and with intent to harm, attack another person on this site.

Express away. No matter your age. Young people do not need to be protected from the many colourful variations of the english language..trust them to be smart enough to make up their own minds....for if we wrap everything in protective rules..they won't have strongly developed ones.

It is interesting also note that the whiners whom are claiming to be persecuted by over zealous religious commentators repeatedly are asking what happened to turn the other cheek. The absurdity is that they prefer persecuting in public forums rather than to follow the rules of respect to any individual groups. Not unlike the stories in that book which they quote from. Using their analogy I could easily make the case that in reality I have never been slapped by any of my cyber friends, nor have I been stoned by religious zealots. If any member of these forums believe it is my intention to make damning comments I think I am being misinterpreted

1. Let's assume that most of the people on this site are 13 and above, because most of them are. Let's also assume that most of these kids have seen lots of PG13 movies.

Did you know that a PG13 movie can have one ass shot in it and the word "f**k" twice according to the national ratings board?

I say lets go with the ratings board. Posts with more than one ass and two ****'s get penalized :).

Honestly, there is very little to protect the little kiddies from on this site. They are out in the world and dealing with all of these things on a daily basis. I have an 11 year old neice who swears more than I do when adults arent around. It's what the world has come to these days, and they are much more aware of the darkness in the external world than we'd like to believe they are. The type of sheltered children who havent already encountered worse in this world have parents that dont let them on the internet by themselves. Lets do a novel thing and let parents be PARENTS! They should check up on their kids and decide if they want their kids here or not.

Even with the modicum of hostility and debate on this site, I would still consider it pretty child friendly. Rarely ever do you see children being lashed out on, all of the debate is between the same people who are all 16 and above. Kids pretty much stay out of those discussions.

2. In a way, I think that the rules force everyone to get creative with their insults, which is a good thing. Most of the people who partake in the down and dirty discussions are eloquent enough to rip someone to shreds without directly breaking many of the rules. I think when people start being blatantly balligerent, they should be penalized. There is a driving law in Oregon called the "Basic Rule" law. It allows drivers to use their best judgement, and expects them to be able to assess driving conditions and do what is safe depending on what they are. I think we should take the same stance on P&Q. Proceed with caution, at your own risk, and do what's safe for conditions. No one should get penalized by law enforcement (mods) unless they obviously break the rules (which should be changed and made more lax in my opinion), but you must proceed at your own risk in terms of getting your feelings hurt or your intelligence insulted by the other people you're debating, just like in a car, you not only risk getting pulled over, but crashing. Personal responsibility plays a huge factor in this.

3. No. There are social boundaries and graces, nothing else.

Sorry Bob, I believe it was me that started the king thing. Well it was not meant to be an insult
It was taken from P.Q kingdom… a humorous thread created by Kaitlin Kristina where poets were assessing the top ranking poets.

Did you ever think you could identify with Bob Dylan, whom is accused of having a cult following?

I am very sorry, but it is very difficult for me to imagine Bob wanting to be viewed as a cult leader just because he is popular among many of his peers, young, and old.

Those were good times.

I miss those :*(.

The times of old,
Have now grown cold.
With the coming of age,
The poets bold.
Breaking rules,
Rules of gold,
Not doing what they're simply told,
Not buying what they're to be sold,
Not so easy, not to mold,
The rebellion now we must behold,
Fight the "man," dont just fold,
We're far too free to be controlled,
On us they havent got a hold,
Our tongues, our thoughts, are not paroled,
The contention, hot enough to scold,
But the basic premise we must uphold.

Poetry and friendship.
Love you all.

That's an interesting idea Harrison...but practically it wouldn't work, it would take waaay too much time to check and recheck complaints and penality points.

I think however...that no thread should be deleted unless it is seconded for deletion by another Mod...and it would be swell if Janis could action this into the workings of the site [ though it can't be Bob and Sluvious who do it..; )

Ok. I'm not incontrol of this thread...but i don't feel enough people are contributing..which is sad...where are the magick 70 people Bob spoke of recently who make up the core group of this site?

It looks like nothing is going to change, which doesn't effect how i Mod one bit...except that i'll have to listen to stupid debates about freedom of expression from adults who got penalities for using bad words.

This is really lame.

I agree that having the mods vote before a penality is given would take way to much time. I think that Janis knew this and that is why he set the system up to where there must be more than one or two penalty points before someone could have their account suspended.

I was there to where Kaitlin was so fondly speaking of....

And quite frankly there was some level of freedom, it was as though the Mods, were merely watchers who cannot enforce the law...

And now they do.

What a strange and complicated cyber world we live in.

I truthfully don't have a problem with the rules as they stand. There isn't a censoring isue going on that others believe is happening. Poems aren't being censored, disrespect to others is. I feel as though it only becomes an issue when poems become censored. I am tired of the statement that people keep making about well were writers and we stand for free speech and thought. No body stands for that, and you can't get that anywhere, not even on the internet. We put the ideas, sarcasm, and issues into words that people can read and agree with even if they don't agree with us. If free speech was allowed everwhere there would be no need for us. I don't think sarcasm needs to be edited out, nor do i think that poking fun does. I think it is ok to poke fun at someone else's belief's that is what makes a person question them and test their truth. Ultimately making that person and his beliefs stronger. But coming out directly and saying I hate you, f you, you assmonkey, that is too far.

Well Cory that is a valid point.

But in the long run. People are allowed to say what they want, without feeling embarassed or silenced by those in control.

To me free speech symbolizes ants speaking through a blowhorn up to the elephants....

So that's it then.

Keep in mind I did not start this thread for my personal gratification. I will moderate as I see fit rules or no rules, with all of you to keep me in check should i overstep the line.

It just seems to me that the last weeks conflict on these boards has been a nasty combination of complaints against the validity and usefulness of certain rules of this site, and also individuals who like a good written scrap, and are, for the most part very intelligent and a bit sharp of tongue.

How many posts are there against Bob now? It's all well and good to say he's just doing his job as a moderator giving penalities to adults for swearing, but soldiers do their job when they kill people and that don't make it right, or logical. It's just unfortunate that Bob is taking all the heat right now by backing up rules that aren't working.

And so i opened up this thread in the hopes enough of you would see sense and agree we should at the very least, change the rules so that only the intent to cause serious upset to a person will warrant a penality, and casual use of coarse language will not.

There will always be problems in here between individuals, that is inevitable, what we can at least do is not exaserbate the situation with achaic rules which are not clearly defined in reality.