Prove me wrong.

Interesting Micheal. I like the idea of looking further into guilt and responsibility, and using Angela's Ashes as an example works really well, especially within the framework of a religious debate.

The Government love religion. They pass policies and laws and allow things to happen which they know will cause undue an unfair stress to the average working person, who will react in a human and normal way and get upset and worked up.

From this stress they will most likely shout at someone, or maybe even hit someone and rather than point the finger at the cause of this stress, the real cause, if they are religious they will go to confession, blame themselves for not being divine enough, get absolved and start it all again.

Religion, and especially confession are unfortunately very useful tools in the hands of the totalitarian regimes that we in Britain and America call "Democratic" politics.

Anything and everything may be abused and I confess that I have abused the sacrament of penance by not having a firm resolve to amend my life and expecting to receive full absolution for my sins, I could easily see myself under the stress of having the responsibility of a family, justifying going to a pub and complaining that the government made me feel worthless, and took my dignity away. I could profess my faith in the godlike human potential while my family was starving. I believe guilt and responsibility should be taken with an awareness of faith, hope and love. Guilt has its place in spiritual healing, but can be much too consuming, if it is not shared by all that are to blame. Governments can be formed by people with godlike potential, but are more often than not influenced by pride, anger, greed, sloth, envy, gluttony and lust

"It is not the job of the non believer to prove something does not exist, because that is impossible...and if you don't understand this then just go try and prove something doesn't exist. Really, prove Yeti's don't exist, prove UFO's don't exist...prove 10000 exact doulbes of yourselves don't exist...please try it...."

prove that they do

i don't know what to believe anymore.

To the best of my ability to understand, some people believe that man just happened over a large period of time, and at some point decided to create God. The point of agreement that creationist and evolutionist have is that man gave names to all of the animals. Man also has been given credit for creating titles. Most seem to prefer to think in masculine terms when it comes to origins with a few exceptions in Greek, Roman and other pagan mythologies mother nature etc. We often refer to the member of our gene pool as forefathers as opposed to foremothers, yet no one could deny the vital role the feminine gender has in our existence. In the so-called Christian era the father title of God was confirmed by the “Lord’s Prayer,” “Our Father who art in heaven” for the purpose of the topic of this discussion my intention is to prove that a title can be subjective, or objective.
If you are interested in my point you must view the facts in an order of regression of the history of a given gene pool. Also for the sake of the topic you must consider the existence of each contributor to the theoretical individual as an entity, which had a physical vessel, which objectively carried he, or she through a lifetime. Find the variables that makes this hypothetical genealogical chart illogical. In the genealogy books I have purchased there is four spaces provided for grandparents, eight for great-grandparents sixteen, great great-grandparents thirty-two, For the sake of this discussion our hypothetical genealogical chart would continue past the average or common book and would denote the generation by regressed power symbols. In other words the life span of or grandparents is two generations back. Our hypothetical genealogical chart would go say twenty generations
Two parents
Four grand parents
Eight great grand parents
Sixteen great great-grand parents
Thirty two great great-great-grandparents
Notice the number doubles every generation.
Now let's say on average a generation is 20 years
Let's take a finite number of years say 6000
Let's say 6000years =300 generations
1st=1
2nd=2
3rd=4
4th=8
5th=16
6th=32
7th=64
8th=128
9th=256
10th=512
11th=1024
12th=2048
13th=4096
14th=8192
15th=16384
16th=32768
17th=65536
18th=131072
19th=262144
20th=524288

Oh my, this is a predicament, if I use this logic to find out how many ancestors I have had since Adam and Eve, don’t I need to find a way to decrease these numbers?524288 is only the number of people it took to suffer and die from the time of Christ, that is how many parents it took to make it possible for me to think about this? The problem only gets more complicated if I try to go back farther I have found some variables to reduce the entities help me find more

WOW..what a heated discussion! I say that the path to heaven is laid with bricks of FAITH!

Micheal, what are you actually trying to say with those numbers? That there have been many hundreds of thousands of parents and grandparents and somehow, this astute observation makes evolution unlikely and creationism more reasonable?

Please, I've seen you post this number thing before, and I didn't get it then, what does it actually mean?

In am glad you ask that Kevin. I know some variables that would lower the number dramatically and it is very simple, but I want to see how logic works, and if the people that you put all of your faith in could give me the variables to make the regressed population decrease. I know the answer but want someone to give me a simple answer why my math problem is not reasonable

“It is not the job of the non believer to prove something does not exist, because that is impossible...and if you don't understand this then just go try and prove something doesn't exist. Really, prove Yeti's don't exist, prove UFO's don't exist...prove 10000 exact doulbes of yourselves don't exist...please try it....”

How many people do you think immediately understood your point, and who are they?

By the way communication in cyberspace is a lot faster than inter galactic communication. It is believed that our nearest neighbor outside our own galaxy is around two million light years away. The closest star is 16.308 light years away. Even if we are the only intellegent beings in the universe twenty generations is a very small fraction of an evolutionary era. It does not even cover the common era by any streach of imagination. How can we define an era of intelligent design by mankind?

if adam and eve were the first humans and we are their 'children' are we incest?
they had let's say 5 children(i do not know the amount nor do i care)

Who'd they mate with? their brothers and sisters? or their mom and dad?

xD

just thought i'd bring that to the table./

Micheal, I still don't understand what you are trying to say with that geneology table. It sounds overly complicated and not really that useful to our discussion, but if it is then please show me how, as I have already asked once hat it actually means and you haven't explained.

Cheers..

Well if there is one thing I remember about you Kevin, it is your distaste for the word mystery .As someone else in this discussion has pointed out there are a lot of people that believe in intelligent design that have no problem with evolution. In the same way some can use the internet and not have a complete understanding of all of the principles that make it work, We can know in our heart and soul that there is a force that directs our moral compass. The algebra equation of my hypothetical chart is obviously flawed because if we continue assuming that every generation back doubles in actual persons the number would eventually not fit on this screen. But my logic is flawed because the place values of the greatness are just titles that intersect each other. My great-great grandfather in the maternal chart may also be my great-great-great grandfather on the paternal chart and this usually occurs many times in the chart where a member of the gene pool can be related to a descendent many different ways. If you remember how I attempted the motivate the natural instinct of pride in our very first debate by referring to those that did not believe they were created in the image and likeness of God as accidentally highly evolved apes you may remember this.
The scientifically minded member of the discussion objected to my use of the word accidentally. He pointed out that the laws of nature that lead to adaptation or evolution are no accident. The laws of nature do not differ from my understanding of a least one property that God has, such as always was and always will be. If we are to believe that we are still evolving to the order of natural selection, are we not sacrificing imperfections to the laws of nature?
.
http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/life/poems.php?id=807190

Yeah....em I still don't get why you included that geneology thing in this discussion....but if you dig it, have at it, just cause I don't think it's overly relevant don't mean it's not right.

Rock on, I'll ride this one until someone says something i can relate to.

Which would you prefer to relate to; God, an ape, an alien or other?.

Whichever one is making the most sense and doing the best for the rest, you know?

Maybe you don't.

But hey, feel free to not answer my very simple question.

The simplest answer that I can think of is that I believe the natural is a fraction of the supernatural. I don’t believe there is a human that understands everything about origins. If I did that would be by a faith that has nothing to do with virtue. Sometimes I think logic leads me closer to pantheism. In my perception of God there is nothing irrelevant
The math in the genealogy was an experiment to see how many would find the flaw in my logic that I knew was there. Faith should never oppose logic that leads to truth

Ah, the voice of reason I have been waiting for! Now I see why I should believe in God with people like Mrs trashed as evidence of the joys of faith!

God help us.

Oo. Be nice Kevin.

I'll be nice if she will.

And who says I don't believe in God? Not me. I don't believe in the long haired white man Christian God, no of course not!

You could say I have a modest feeling about higher powers, but I'm not so arrogant in my limited intelligence to assume I know for sure about such things.

Ami. If you have the time and inclination, read my last post again, and think about it before you post a reply, because your post above was nothing more than a typical knee jerk reaction to something you don't understand very well.

First off, if I say I don't believe in something, and then finish the statement by say, "of course not", that clearly means I do NOT believe in it....i don't see the space for misinterpretation there!

What I meant by it, was that I don't believe or like the Image the Catholic church puts forward of Jesus, this is the churches arrogance in assuming they know anything about the real appearance of the man, not mine. I said that I have a feeling about such things, but I'm not arrogant enough to assume I know for sure. The arrogance in stating in exact terms the who and why of God belong to the church and not me.

Lastly, I am not lost, nor do I need to learn more about Religion, I have been there and done that and it doesn't work for me. If you find it suits you then have at it...there is an inner voice calling me that heeds no scripture.

i didn't read through all the posts, so i amy repeet)sp) but if i do im sorry.......

My belifes about god..... i dont know any.... not becasue i dont believe that there is SOMTHING out there, i just dont believe there is one exact thing that we can pin point the created all of us, and that is controling everything....maybe i am wrong, may be we were all created in the big bang but if that be true, or if god be true for that matter......what created them? there is always an unanswered question..... waht created god..... what created the thing that created him? it can go on for ever....

also another theroy.....(but kinda weird)
have you ever had an ant farm? you watch then u put them there, the buil, reproduce, and live lives, that they have always lived, you can control every thing, you play god.........well waht if we are all just one big ant farm? with people controling us? ...

One more....
scientists say that black holes have no ending..... but do they? i mean maybe they lead to another universe, jsut like ours, only of aliens....
bianca

"3. It is not the duty of the non believer to find something that does not exist until it has been proven or some evidence shown.

Have fun with the Yeti's/God search"

Kevin what do you think about potential proof being criticized on the basis of what may have occurred? Rather than giving more weight to the actual evidence found

http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_2000/wells.html

Maybe we can have fun with the stoned mummy search

There are times that i believe in God and times that I don't. Why? It's because lot of people believe in God and I should believe him too or else, they'll call me pagan or a sinner. On the other hand, they couldn't stop me from questioning the existence of God because I have no proof that he's really there.
There are only stories about him (in the bible) but I never saw him with my own eyes. People say that miracles happen because of Him but i bet to disagree. Miracles are just coincidence, and coincidence happens often.

Micheal, I'm asking questions and you are answering, but you aren't asking any of your own except of my beliefs.

Which means to me you have stopped searching your own faith for truth.

Which means you are wrong because you don't have any answers, and neither do I...I just don't say I've found the truth, only that you haven't.

It seems to me that the yeti has evolved to hide our primitive nature while king tut finds it increasingly difficult to hide the fact he was an ego junkie. Is it possible to learn from their creations?

For proof of God's existence look no further than Darwainism and inteligent design.

Every study and piece of evidence ever paraded out regarding darwainism has been refuted and proven false. There are no fossil proofs, no evidentury proof and nothing to support the theory of evolution (theories are typically supported by scientific proof).

However, there are numerous studies documenting the inteligent design of human, cells, dna, etc.. The eye is not an evolution of photocells that became an eye.....otherwise there would be fossil evidence of people with no eyes, who gradually grew eyes.

Where did the intelligent design come from if not from God? It is apparent it did not randomly occur in nature, as there is no proof, no evidence, no study. All of the ones ever used have been debunked. The theory of evolution requires more belief and faith than God, for at least the concept of inteligent design is one that can and has been scientifically proven. A lexis/nexis search provides all the substantive results.