Security vs. Liberty?

Are security measures justified to the extent that civil liberties can be sacrificed?

The events of September 11th 2001 forced governments all over the world to take extraordinary measures to enhance the security of their citizens. Heightened security measures, such as those in the US, include unparalleled airport checkpoint procedures, face recognition devices in public places, tracking, monitoring and identification through thumb printing of certain categories of visitors, random searches of Internet content by intelligence officers, the ability to demand records on somebody from any business or organisation, the use of wiretaps and the ability to intercept and read email, and eavesdropping on conversations between a lawyer and their client. The possible use of racial profiling to target “suspicious individuals” for more thorough searches and questioning is also being seriously discussed, although apparently not in operation. Most of these measures are associated with loss of privacy; liberty has also directly been infringed through the detention without charge or trial of non-citizens, on the grounds they do not enjoy the same rights as citizens, the designation of US citizens as enemy combatants and their indefinite detention, and by trying suspects through military tribunals rather than in a normal court with judge and jury.On the one hand, extraordinary security measures are required to counteract the imminent threats of terrorism that has become much more cunning and resourceful over the last decade. On the other hand, the introduction of these measures comes at the expense of sacrificing some of our most cherished civil liberties and rights as citizens. No doubt, there is a trade-off between security and liberty, but what is the ideal balance between them?

If the first and second amendments stay in tact, the government has to govern. Once you surrender the right to speak freely and carry arms, then you have surrendered to the government. No free people that were armed have ever been enslaved by their government, only the unarmed populace, unable to mount a rebellion.

I don't mind cameras everywhere, my email or my calls being monitored by the NSA...I'm not breaking the law. Let them listen....no big deal. But, for the ones who are breaking the law or plotting dastardly deeds, if they get caught because of government monitoring....wonderful.

When the government passes laws against smoking in your car, or against transfat in food, it is telling you, the voter, that you are too stupid to take care of yourself and the government must do it for you. These type of intrusions must be stopped. Failure to stop them gives the government more control than it needs. Sadly, most of these measures are brought by the party of slavery, the democratic party, as they are the elitists who believe they know best for the individual. We cannot take care of ourselves and need big government to do it for us. Sadly, the last 6 years the republican party, the party of freedom and independence, has become like the liberal elite and created big government.

What this country needs is smaller government, an agenda based on safety, no political correctness (tolerance is for people who do not have any values or principles....because if you do, you stand for what you believe in and do not give in to someone else), and the freedom to choose....whatever. Like Dennis Leary said in Demolition Man....smoke a cigar, eat a cheeseburger, whatever....do what you want...as long as you are not hurting someone else. Your right to not hear the word God does not override my right to prayer or say the Pledge of Allegiance.

The courts must be kept out of legistlation, that is the lawmakers job. Follow the constitution and abolish law making powers of the courts. Too many judges think they know what is best and they create laws out of court cases, that never pass through the legislative body. Our country was not founded that way. The power must be taken away from the courts. There is a reason, in any revolution that they kill the lawyers first

Time to get off of my soapbox now.

What your country needs is a good martial uprising, Britain needs it too. Kinda like the bullied kid lashing out at the bully for once. He'll be very careful the next time he tries any nonsense around that Kid.

Bill, I agree with you that sometimes, people need to be told what is best for them, but at the same time I don't like the idea of their personal freedom to mess things up being taken away, because I think it's a slipperly slope you know? Like once you get the public to accept a small lessensing of their rights on one issue, and it can be anything as stupid as smoking bans in restuarants, you have lost because then they can justify that acceptance as reason to ban the same thing in other area's, and then it's gone for good.

The smoking issue is a minor one, but they use the same principle with other more threatening idea's, like over here we have the ID card, which of course was put forward not long after 9/11....and it was rejected outright. Then we had the London Bus bombings and it was brought back up, despite the fact it has not worked anywhere else in the world as a terrorist deterent. If we had agreed to Id cards that would make our lives easier by combining passports, NI numbers and Data records, we'd not be able to complain if they then linked our bank records to them...and then credit card records and criminal records....and suddenly....you miss a few payments on the loan, or lose your job...and your passport is revoked and you can't take money out your bank without contacting the government.

It's bullshit, but they will push us as far as we will go, and they do it slow enough we think it isn't happening that quickly.

Someone needs to organise society, that much is clear, and it can't be a bunch of rebels with a cause....but, I hate seeing fake justifications for a power hungry totalitarian government eroding our freedoms bit by bit.

Kevin, I don't think government should legistlate what we do. I don't think they know what is best for us:

Child safety seat laws: Great...kids need taken care of.

Adult seat belt laws: No. If you are too stupid to realize a seatbelt can save your life, then too bad.

Laws on helmets for kids on motorcycles: Great...some parents wouldn't look out for their kids.

Helmet laws for adults: No. If you don't wear your helmet and die, bummer. I ride and I wear a helmet, not because I want to, but because I won't hurt my wife and son by getting killed needlessly.

Government does not erode our freedoms...we give them away. We re-elect crooks like Reid from Nevada and Murtha from back east (he was caught taking 50k from fbi agents during abscam, 20 years ago and dummies keep re-electing the thief). In some respects, the government is right, we as a populace are dumb. Individuals are smart...people are stupid.

Do not be tolerant, be principled.

Do not knowingly elect crooks.

Use your freedom of speech and let your voice be heard.

Question "why" with every law.

Follow the money.

Force congress to stop earmarking.

I don't smoke. I never voted for or asked for a smoking ban in public places. I didn't eat at restaurants that allowed it and I didn't go places that I knew I wouldn't like because of the smoking. I voted with my wallet.

Adults should be allowed to do what they want to do, as long as they don't risk someone elses life (don't drink and drive). Want to shoot smack...go ahead. Legalize all drugs. Sell them like booze in government run stores and if you are caught dealing, you get hit with tax evasion. Let the IRS have them. Take the money spent on the "war against drugs" and the tax revenues from selling it in government controlled stores and use it for FREE rehab and education. You want to harm your health, cool. You want to ruin your life, great. Just tax it and stop pretending we can stop it. Drugs have been around longer than what is considered the oldest profession.

Live your life in such a way that you are considered a maverick, someone who stands for freedom. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Change only happens when people decide to put down the nintendo and take up the protest.

Sluvy, I beg to disagree. The dems have sponsored most of the bills that restrict smoking, transfat, etc.. Although the republican party has become like the democratic party the past 6 years and started down the path of big government, they have still stayed away from legistlating personal habits like eating.

Recently the dems introduced and passed a bill they touted as lowering college costs....it lowers interest on student loans and takes until 2011 to effectively do that. It did nothing to stem out of control college costs, once again ensuring that only the wealthy will get a higher education and the working class stays the working class. The truly wealthy do not want the working class to become educated, as they might see through the ruse and rise up in discension. Just one more example of the rich trying to keep the working class down. Knuckleheads of both parties voted for this, despite warnings from the student loan providers stating they coulding stay in business if this passes...so even less people will go to school, because there will be less money to lend and less companies to service the loans.

People tend to read the "talking points" and not the meat of articles, bills, or the news. Sad.

Sadly, our government needs an enema...

I think for those of you who think that the government should allow people to just make stupid decisions on their own, you need to look at this from both sides of the coin. Yes people can do research for days, months, years, whatever to find out about stuff to keep all the civilians out of harm's way, but at the same time the government has a responsibility to protect us from harmful things. Do I think we should trade freedoms for it, no. Do I think that the patriot act was unconsititutional in almost every way, yes. The government needs to protect teh people by not allowing obvious wrongs go covered up. If they really wanted to protect us they would protect us from huge corporations that sell poison to people, enslave people, and make money off it as human beings die. What kind of crap is that. There is no balance their. If they are suppose to protect us, protect us from everything equally. If they are suppose to give us our freedoms, give us our freedoms equally. But they don't need to take away our freedoms to protect us. They can stop almost any major attack without taking away our freedoms.

I'm drunk and didn't read this whole thread in fact I only read the title but...

I think a goverments place is to do only two things keep outside foes from harming us and protect us from each other. Thats it. There should be no laws keeping people from harming only them selfs. You wanna smoke everyday and drink untill you die fine. That's your choice as long as you're not driving. Wanna eat untill your heart stops and you die thats fine. Here in the US more aand more laws are being created that take the goverment from an entity thats here so we can all live together in a civil way and turning it into our mommy and or daddy. Its becoming a nanny state. Well I'm of the opinion voteing age adults shouldn't be treated like children we should be able to make our own choices and mistakes. You know somewhere along the line exsistence has goten so easy that we've degenerated into a state of cowerdness (sp?). We forget: LIFE IS NOT SAFE. It never has been and if we still wish to have any freedom left we must relize it never will be. Living a real life is about uncertainty and even death. It's about failure as well as succes. It's not about safety its about being smart enough to make your OWN choices and having the ability to make mistakes. I'd rather live a life making my own mistakes and sufering my own scares. I'd rather do that then have the state do it for me. Thats my opinion. I realize many people out there are scared rabbits or worse arogant jack asses that think they know whats best for everyone to the poin that they'd like to force everybody to behave the way they see fit. And they are every where. Left wingers right wingers, Cons ,libs priests,preachers,speacila intrest groups and Rosie O'donnell. I'd say to all of you. You need to think for your self I mean REALLY think for yourselfs. Look at reality for yourself. Take anything no matter how taboo it maybe to do so and look at it from the oppisite side. Debate agianst your own deepest held beliefs. And quit being so damn afriad to hold a belief that the majorty of people might feel is to new,to diffrent or even to antiquated. But anyway I'd rather live in a free world full of peril than a world of a safe well fed child.