For or against animal testing?

I may be digressing a bit, but I believe that there will always be scapegoats....To the advancement of society and science. Before it was humans (Ethnic Minorities), today it is the animals.....Tommorrow it will be the inhabititants of various other planets....

"This is the law of nature, the law of the jungle. I don't see anyone complaining about eating animals? Can I get a show of hands, from those who are anti testing, of who is a Vegan?"

I, my man am not a Vegan, I am a red blooded carnivore...

But I guess from your question you posed, you are trying to correlate that us eating meat makes us the same as those who actually subject animals to this treatment. I am actually laughing at that feeble attempt of actually backing up your opinion...

Let me just say that actually torturing the animals and killing them is two different things. When cows and chickens are killed, they are killed humanely, which means they are killed without any pain. But when you inject or prod unregistered viruses and bacteria or inject them with a strain that may be deadly...They actually suffer the consequences...

Bang Bang and Daenyers tried to say that, until you eloquently shut them down in a condesending manner.

I will paraphrase from my original first post: Does it really matter! We are just arguing and bickering while this is actually happening. So let's just end this foolishness...It not only makes us seem asinine but it actually degrades our morals...

It's tricky to really say what you mean in a text only discussion, particularly in a charge debate like this one. However, I think we should buck the trend of this website and not call for this tppic to be closed down simply because we are getting all hot and bothered about it. Maybe we are close to some kind of conclusioon, or comprimise or something!..now is not the time to stop!

Noir, I'm glad I made you laugh, you returned the favour mate, seriously. If you think the meat industry is a pain free holiday for all the hundreds of thousands of animals that are slaughtered for it's needs, daily, then go here and watch some of the films...it's not pleasant viewing, but you might learn something, I know I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxloCd1kBCY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Duser%2Eviewprofile%26friendid%3D125609493

Ps, I'm a vegatarian by the by, purely because I hate the meat industry, just thought you ought to know before you throw the animal hater book at me.

"Bang Bang and Daenyers tried to say that, until you eloquently shut them down in a condesending manner"
^Thanks for informing me, I was previously unaware. Ignorance is bliss. You eloquently shut us down in a condescending manner as well Oh Great One. Way to go.

I'm not vegetarian, but my mum isn't stupid enough to get what comes from factories. I've seen a video about animal cruelty for food before and it's sick, and I know I don't eat that processed crap.
x

It's tricky to really say what you mean in a text only discussion, particularly in a charge debate like this one. However, I think we should buck the trend of this website and not call for this tppic to be closed down simply because we are getting all hot and bothered about it. Maybe we are close to some kind of conclusioon, or comprimise or something!..now is not the time to stop!"

Well what comprimise would that be Kevin....It's funny because I wouldn't see something fruitful when speaking about an injustice that is already happening, and something we cannot at this momemt change...So why speak of it...We aired our opinions and we all frantically tried to persuade the other...As it is the nature of debates...But quite frankly this needs to end.

Noir, I'm glad I made you laugh, you returned the favour mate, seriously. If you think the meat industry is a pain free holiday for all the hundreds of thousands of animals that are slaughtered for it's needs, daily, then go here and watch some of the films...it's not pleasant viewing, but you might learn something, I know I did."

Well like I said before I do not know about the meat industry in Britain, but what I do know is the meat industry in Middle east...Which abides by the rule of "Quickly killing the animal with no pain"

"Ps, I'm a vegatarian by the by, purely because I hate the meat industry, just thought you ought to know before you throw the animal hater book at me."

And this proves what...Just because you are vegatarian does not mean you can abide by the same ideaologies as the others...It not only presents a stereotype which you so done, and it also proves no evidence to your opinion...

So Noir, you seen no comparison between humans using animals for food , and humans using animals for medical testing?

Both of which are unecessary, with one yielding potentially huge benifits and the other providing cheap sustinance for the masses.

Well Kevin I don't think the two can even be typed in the same sentence..Mainly because both use different methods and purposes...

And I believe the topic is animal testing, not animal eating.

Kevin: I do not understand your logic...It seems really reasonable to me, that hurting an animal that can feel pain, is morally wrong.

Yet you insist that it has to be done for the advancement of mankind. Although I find it propoustrous, I would argue scientifically that testing on animals would not better mankind, seeing as we are biologically different from the animals (Mammals)...If you test on an orangutan and then it proves successful, and then give it to a sick person, chances are the probability are that it would or may not even work.

Non-Human testing is ethically wrong, in that respect and scientifically it may even work.

Apparently, there are alternatives to animal testing that many scientists agree would be more effective. One of the biggest is that now we can clone human tissue. Would that not be way more effective to test on, considering it came from a human and not an animal who is built differently than us?

Once we can impeach Bush, that idea will mean something.

My personal opinion is im against it.

I am against animal testing unless it is something important. I don't believe an animal should be tested , or put though experments to see how intellegent it is. Tell me how can something be intellegent, if they kill it. Diesect it to see what makes it tick. I don't believe people should mess with something, that they know nothing about. It is in my opion it is a crime against nature.

Depends on whether or not the product is for animals.

J.R.S.P.

If you have the inclination, here is a very simple timeline of the medical breakthroughs and advancements that have been made possible, and safe using animal testing.

1900's
Local anaesthetics
Cocaine was the first local anaesthetic, but its dangers led to the development of the safer procaine. Rabbits, dogs

Corneal transplants
The first successful human transplant was of the cornea, the clear covering of the eye. It is normally out-of-reach of white blood cells, so rejection is not a problem. Rabbits

1910's
Blood transfusion
Many doctors and scientists were involved in the research that led to the safe storage and routine transfusion of sterile, compatible blood. Dogs, guinea pigs, rabbits

1920's
Insulin for diabetes
Before the development of insulin, Type 1 diabetes was a death sentence. Millions of lives, both human and animal, have been saved by insulin. Dogs, rabbits, mice

Canine distemper vaccine
Distemper (hard pad) in dogs was rife a century ago. Research on the disease - only possible with very careful isolation and disinfection routines - revealed a virus as the cause and ultimately yielded a vaccine. Dogs

1930's
Modern anaesthetics
Intravenous anaesthetics were first used successfully for short surgical procedures in human patients in the mid 1930s. Modern inhaled anaesthetics began to be developed from the 1950s. Rats, rabbits, dogs, cats, monkeys

Diphtheria vaccine
Before the antitoxin and the vaccine, this disease was widespread, serious and fatal for one in ten. They died from suffocation, paralysis and heart failure. Guinea pigs, rabbits, horses, monkeys

Anticoagulants
Anticoagulants prevent potentially fatal blood clots. Heparin and warfarin were the first anticoagulants developed for human use. Rabbits, guinea pigs, mice, dogs

1940's
Kidney dialysis
Dialysis saves the lives of hundreds of thousands of patients with kidney failure, and is often used until a kidney is available for transplant. Guinea pigs, rabbits, dogs, monkeys

Broad spectrum antibiotics for infections
The development of penicillin and other broad spectrum antibiotics revolutionised the treatment of bacterial infections in both humans and animals. Mice
Whooping cough vaccine
Whooping cough, also known as pertussis, is potentially a major cause of child death. Its incidence has dropped steadily wherever the vaccine has been introduced. Mice, rabbits

Heart-lung machine for open heart surgery
Open-heart surgery for severe heart conditions would be impossible without the heartlung machine to take over circulation and oxygenation of the blood. Dogs

1950's
Hip replacement surgery
Rheumatoid and osteo-arthritis take their toll on our joints and can cause years of suffering. Failing hips, and other joints, can be replaced using artificial joints made of strong, inert material. Dogs, sheep, goats

Kidney transplants
The best and most cost effective treatment for chronic kidney failure is a transplant. Around 2,000 patients in the UK receive a new kidney every year. Dogs

Carciac pacemakers
Pacemakers are like implanted electronic clocks, sending a small current through a lead to stimulate the heart beat. About 10,000 patients benefit every year in the UK. Dogs

Polio vaccine
The vaccine has eradicated polio in the western world, and a worldwide vaccination programme aims to eliminate this crippling disease completely. Mice, monkeys

Drugs for high blood pressure
Annual deaths in the UK from high blood pressure were about 20,000 before the introduction of effective medicines. These medicines also reduce the risk of stroke, heart and kidney disease. Rats, mice, cats, dogs

Replacement heart valves
Artificial heart valves give a new lease of life to patients - some 6,000 a year in the UK - whose own valves are failing due to congenital defects or disease. Valves from pigs have also been used successfully since the 1970s. Dogs, calves, rabbits, guinea pigs, rats

1960's
German measles vaccine
This epidemic disease, also known as rubella, mainly affects children, but can also cause severe defects in the unborn child. Monkeys

Coronary bypass operations
Healthy arteries can be transplanted from the leg to replace dangerously blocked heart arteries. This operation is now routine and at least 13,000 UK patients benefit every year. Dogs

Drugs to treat mental illness
Lithium was one of the first drugs developed to treat depression, the fourth most common illness worldwide. Rats, guinea pigs, rabbits

Heart transplants
The first successful human transplant was in 1967, building on experience gained in transplanting other organs and animal experiments. Dogs

1970's
Cat scanning for improved diagnosis
The use of 3D scanners and injected chemicals to improve contrast means that X-rays can show the organs of the body more clearly. Pigs
Chemotherapy for leukaemia

Treatments for the commonest form of childhood leukaemia mean that eight out of ten with the disease are long-term survivors. Mice

Drugs to treat ulcers
Drug treatment for ulcers means that surgery to remove ulcers is no longer necessary. Rats, dogs
Inhaled asthma medication

Inhaled drugs for asthma prevent or relieve the suffering of asthmatics and save lives. Guinea pigs, rabbits

1980's
Life support systems for premature babies
Tiny babies depend for their survival on specialised ventilators, incubators and monitoring systems. Monkeys

Drugs to control transplant rejection
Without drugs to suppress the immune system, organs could only be transplanted successfully between close relatives, preferably identical twins. Mice, rabbits, dogs, monkeys

Hepatitis vaccines
Vaccines are helping the fight against the infectious (A) and serum (B) virus, which cause hepatitis, cirrhosis and liver cancer. Monkeys

Drugs to treat viral diseases
Drugs such as amantadine and acyclovir are used to control serious viral infections in both people and animals. Many species

Treatment for river blindness
A drug first developed to treat heartworm in dogs has been donated by a pharmaceutical company to save the sight of millions of people in tropical countries threatened by a similar parasitic infection. Rodents, cattle

1990's
Feline leukaemia vaccine
A type of potentially fatal leukaemia in cats caused by a retrovirus (FeLV) can now be prevented. Cats
Meningitis vaccine

Hib meningitis, once a major cause of meningitis leading to brain damage and death in young children, is now very rare thanks to the vaccine. Mice
Better drugs for depression

The new class of antidepressants - selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) such as Prozac - act in a very specific way in the brain and thus have fewer side effects. Rats

Combined drug therapy for HIV infection
Combinations of antiviral drugs are currently the best therapy for HIV, often keeping full-blown AIDS at bay for many years. Mice, monkeys

Drugs for breast and prostate cancer
The survival rates for breast cancer and prostate cancer have improved significantly since the introduction of new drugs. Mice, rats, dogs

2000's
Drugs for adult leukaemia and lymphoma
Effective monoclonal antibody therapy for these cancers has been developed. Mice, rats, monkeys

Alzheimer's disease vaccine?
A vaccine has been shown to be effective in mice in reducing the brain damage caused by Alzheimer's disease, and is now being tested in patients. Mice

Gene therapy for inherited diseases?
The insertion of healthy genes to correct gene defects, for instance in cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy and thalassaemia, is a new idea. It is being guided by studies in animals, which have shown some success. Mice

Malaria vaccine?
A huge effort has been mounted to find an effective vaccine against malaria, which kills three million people every year in tropical countries. Mice, monkeys

Now, I can't think of anyone I know who has at least not been touched by one of these conditions, I know I have....in particular the Penicilin and the medication for the treatment of bacterial infections etc. You have to be realistic, the benifits to humans and animals is greater than the cost of a comparitively small amount of animals, which are usually bred for the purpose, suffering or even dying.

http://www.rds-online.org.uk/pages/page.asp?i_ToolbarID=3&i_PageID=37

Alllllriiiiiiiiiiighttttt.
well i'm obviously not stocked up on facts or anything, i'm just not really up for the idea of animals getting hurt.
x

Animals prey on each other for survival, that is a law of nature and we all accept it.

We humans have a more complex understanding of what it means to survive. For us it's not just about not getting killed and eating enough food, it's about surviving disease and accidents and ensuring our children have the best possible chances they can.

Do you really think that if any animal could have the understanding that we do, to use other animals to prevent disease of their own kind by testing on them, they would not do it?

Of course they would, in a heartbeat, they just can't and we can. We do whatever we can to survive just like they do.

I am not talking here about testing makeup, only serious medical testing.

It really doesn't matter to me really. This is just a smaller subject compared to others.

AGAINST!! It's nasty for animals to be hurt to make certain products....Its wrong and sick and also very disgusting....:(

Ok, i used to be completely against animal testing.

but after my mum got ill years ago, i changed my views a little.

im still against it, and hope alternatives to animal testing are used instead at some point. but for now, with the "medicines" and "cures" for illnesses etc, I am ok with. because they helped my mum.

but for cosmetics and household products, i see that as pointless abuse to the animals.

xx

I think its wrong generally. especially cuz we are testing stuff on them they will never use. humans should test human products. now flea products and stuff is fine so long as they aint tortured. testing them the way we do now is saying they aint worth love and they don't matter and are less than use. god told adam to name the animals, not test medicine on them....

Cosmetics - No
Cures - Yes
Especially on sheep, Evil creatures

I definitely think big stuff (like cancer n heart n diabetes meds) should be tested on animals, just in the most humane way possible. anything that causes an animal unneccessary harm is cruel, but it is better to take an animal's life than a childs, or a someone's mothers, or someone's lover - you get the idea.

Thing is, i agree w/ whoever said that 100 animals dying can save a hundred thousand humans, and maybe even a few animals! even if u like animals better than people, i don't think that they're a thousand times better than ppl.

Just so u no, if the chickens spend 5 min. a day outside with enough space 2 turn around, they can call themselves free range. Sometimes they r just let out onto concrete, not even grass or dirt. i always buy amish, cuz they tend 2 be honest ppl who actually believe in what they say

But then would you rather a monkey that you had raised since birth and bonded a deep friendship with...die or a random stranger? I guess if you aren't that fond of monkeys, that question may not seem difficult to answer. If someone had me choose between my horse and a random stranger, there would be one less human polluting this planet.

...*chimming in*

We wouldn't need to test on animals if we didn't put toxic chemicals in the make-ups in the first place.

*Backs away into the crowd to watch the cat fight*...

How do you know the chemicals are toxic until they have been tested? Way to go mojo. Either way, before you think your ego has been smashed, let me state that a LOT of animal testing is done for "meaningful" scientific purposes outside cosmetic production. I'm surprised you don't know this.

You don't have to test on animals, you can test chemicals on human tissue, and blood samples.