Religion and The Why of it.

Rather than debate whether God exists or not, I thought it would be more to the point to talk about why people believe in him [aside from that fact they think he exists].

What does it serve people to believe in Religion, what do they get out of it? What needs are met, what service does it give society? What is it's worth? Is it worth it?

I'd like to hear some of you answer these questions if you like.

Kevin:

I believe God or a prevalent creative entity exists. Now I believe that religion is nothing more than the what Karl Marx refers to as "The Opium of the People"...To which it is.

I believe that religion serves as a security blanket in which society can smoothly function. But seeing as science has become the new metanarrative, and people are now disbeliefing in religion. I am seeing that religion serves as a tradition rather than a nessasity (sp?).

What I mean is religion serves is much like the Royal Family here in Britian. It serves no purpose to society, yet it is tradition and it also identifies us as a culture.

That is a pretty amazing way to look at it, and one which I have no commonly encountered.

Religion is an important cultural reference, but like you said it is being replaced by Science [thankfully] and will surely be left behind by societies around the world as a historical reference point.

We seem to need to believe in something, and for those who will find it very hard to accept the facts of science, I suppose there will have to be new spiritual or mystical belief systems. I have expected this for a long time. I wonder what they will be? Imagine they will acknowledge the divine spirit within humans without referencing any diety. And the rules or commandments, will be rephrased to guidelines that hint at aiming for the greater good, being non judgemental to everyone, loving your fellow beings...and hopefully questioning everything around you to test for truth...

Maybe I will start this new cult.

Maybe you should...Lol.

I think people have a need to believe in something because they know for a fact that their life is mortal. Thus they try to find spirtual meaning to their life, and think that the world will begin after their eventual death. Rather than look at it from the view that "once we die, we're worm chow".

Good topic! I'll put in my three or so cents.

First off, it might help to draw a line between organized religion and faith. In my view, faith is a personal committment (though it could be shared in communion with others) where religion is a more worldly thing, concerned with rules and order.

Your question was "why do you believe in God," but you said not to say "because I think He exists." Heh, and yet, that is what I'm going to say, to start off with. I believe because I cannot NOT believe. I believe that trees grow out of the earth, and I can't really believe otherwise. But I think the real question you might be asking is "why do you follow God?" Believing in an existence and believing in a cause are two different things.

I can think of several "reasons" for why people might follow God, but not of them are as worthy as the one that you have disallowed, I believe. Some of these reasons might be:

1. Religion promotes order
2. Religion makes people feel good about themselves.
3. Religion "gets people into Heaven."

I don't believe any of these reasons are very valid.
For the first point - organized religion has just as often sought war as it has peace. In the Judeo-Christian doctrines, at least, war is not looked on as a positive. "Thou shalt not kill," "Do not judge lest ye be judged." Therefore, I can only assume that this violence is a human construction.

For the second point - Though we are in an egotisical age where everyone wants to feel good about themselves, feeling "holier than thou" is not a good way to go about it. Besides, though many people point out this superior attitude as a problem with the Christian faith, my personal experience has lead me to believe that religion, rather than coating a person in self-satisfied complacency, has a great capacity to make one really take a hard look at oneself. I think it would be easier to have no faith than to have one that makes me really consider myself and my moral actions.

For the third idea, that religion is a ticket to heaven... I think this is very, very shaky ground. If a person is acting "correctly," not because they want to do good, but just because they want the reward, then is that action really worthy? This situation brings to mind that old probability square, where someone (I'm afraid I don't know who) logically decided that it would be best to believe in God, because then he'd really have nothing to lose if he was wrong. People ought to do what's right because it's right... not out of fear of an extrenal punishment. The only punishment to fear would be knowing that you did something wrong - not feeling pity for yourself, but just being sad for doing wrong. What this standard of Right and Wrong is judge by, however, I have no real idea : P

*added* Whether or not we live on after death, I think we should live as the actions we make in this life are important - maybe not to the nature of out post-mortem souls, but important to the world around us.

I... suppose... that I try to follow God's way because I think that living with hope, compassion, understanding, justice and love is the right way to live. That seems like a good enough reason, anyway. If there wasn't a God, I hope I would still wish to live this way. But to me, that is what God IS, that is what He stands for. And believing that helps me open my eyes to the world, it helps me notice the unnoticeable, it helps me touch the untoucheable. It makes for an uncomfortable life, perhaps - in the same way that climbing a steep hill is uncomfortable. I can only believe that the destination - and the journey - are completely worthy.

Sibyllene, as always your posts kinda humble me in their honesty and complete lack of Ego.

I like how you from the start draw the line [that precious line] between Faith and religion. What interests me though is what kind of faith we would have as a human race, without religion. I know why you sererate them, i mean any morally positive person with a knowledge of history would want to put a solid distance between them and religion as an organised thing. It's the link that is the interesting thing don't you think? People have personal faith because of the religion...

The 3 numbered examples you gave of what purposes relgions serves as all very vallid. I mean I could argue against them, particularly about the order thing, given how much disorder is created by relgion, but I think I know what you are getting at. Religion is a social glue that holds certain sections of society together under one unifying banner...is that what you mean?

I also think your number 2, that religion makes people feel good about themselves is quite possibly the most important one you mentioned. And it is this one that I think comes the most into play when you discuss a persons faith in a questioning way. Religion offers very easy answers to many of the difficult questions in life, such as what happens after death and what is right and wrong etc. I can totally understand how content a person must be who has a strong religious faith in feeling they are in possession of the truth and the way. It is very tempting to me even, who though I believe I have many answers already, still try to look past them at other options, which isn't easy, but it's worth it if i find something I can prove to be true, or back up in a logical and researched way.

There are many reasons that have been and will be forever repeated in both formal and informal literature, and by the people here...but ultimately, my take is that organised belief systems skew the definition of right and wrong, permitting the practice of injustice to other fellow humans. E.g. Extreme-Jihad-ists bombing (although that's an artificial image made primarily by propaganda and the American government...).

In my AS critical thinking (which SUCKS), there is a flaw called 'restricting the options' (or maybe it has an even more pointless jargon to name it), which basically means the arguer restricts the options of an argument in order to promote his own - (so, 'I could either run or walk, therefore I should run because it is faster'; in actual fact you could take the bus). Similarly, that's what religion does. It is as if one has to choose his religion and that's that. Wake up ****'s! If you want an answer to a question, you research and find out the answer, not join a ***** religion!

Ha... I wish I didn't have an ego. But thanks.

"Religion is a social glue that holds certain sections of society together under one unifying banner...is that what you mean?"

Yes, in a way. I think the 3 examples I gave are examples of what religion DOES do... but I don't think that any of those reasons in themselves is a good reason to have a faith in the first place. So - potentially positive effects, but not a motivation.

"I can totally understand how content a person must be who has a strong religious faith in feeling they are in possession of the truth and the way."

Yes, this is a very interesting thing. Maybe I simply think this because I have an imperfect understanding, but I think that a state of complete certainty would be hard to attain without blinding oneself to some facts. At the best, I think a particular kind of certainty is possible: A certainty that there are good things in this world, and that those good things are worth living for.

On the other hand, a person who examines his or herself spiritually is likely to not be content with what they find. Having a set of rules for living does take away the uncertainty, and yet there is still the supreme discomfort of actually having to live up to those rules : ).

-so in summary - believing that there is a point to existence may provide contentment and strength... but having to live by moral rules is not necessarily going to make someone feel good about themselves.

Do you get the distinction I'm trying to make? My brain's a little flustered at the moment.

Would anyone care to name just one thing in this life that cannot be abused?

I think I do get your point. And I've said it before many times, if you are going to challenge a persons belief system with the hope of changing it away from a certain line of thought you must have something else, something better and more truthful and benificial for them to move onto, because they obviously need some model of the world to hold on to, I know I did when I was young.

When I debate with people about how negative I think religion is, and in particular Christianity in all it's forms, I very rarely offer an alternative, which I know isn't a very intelligent way of debating...or more accurately, it's not very inviting is it?

"hey change everything you believe about the way the world works....and eh, change it to, well whatever, just not that"

I believe many have tried to change it to whatever cannot be abused and failed.

I'm not really religous.
Although I have no issues with the idea of "God" itself, I find a lot of the traditions and such tied into it, well, silly.

I used to be atheist, but a lot of people seemed to think that made me "against god." So, I changed to agnostic[ism? haha].

I don't really know if there are any rules or whatever to it, but I've sort of implemented it to fit my own personal views.

They go like this:
I don't know if there is a god or not. I don't think there is a heaven or a hell, or heck, even a limbo.
I do however think that we are very lucky to be alive. I mean, come on, how many other planets do you know of with humans, iguanas, and centipedes all living harmoniously together? Not too many.

Judging from that, since the likelihood of us even being here is slim, well, maybe that means there's a whole hell of a lot more to it than we know. In which case, maybe there is a higher entity.

I do agree, though, that religion enforces a unity among people. However, religious words aren't very unanimous, are they?

Eh. Maybe I'm just confused.
Oh well.
Hehe.

One of my favourite comedians, Doug Stanhope has lots to say about religion. He has this great skit where he asks the audience to imagine they had never heard of the bible or Jesus or anything to do with the Catholic/Christian faith. They walk into a book shop and find a copy of this strange book called the bible. He asks if they picked it up and read it cover to cover, do they really think as intelligent adults, they would accept it as true and relevant?

I mean think about it? We are so used to the Idea of Genesis that most people don't even stop to consider how amazingly unlikely and Sci Fi it is, it is soooo ingrained in our consciousness...it's a funny sketch which you can find on youtube with his name as a search.

"We are so used to the Idea of Genesis that most people don't even stop to consider how amazingly unlikely and Sci Fi it is, it is soooo ingrained in our consciousness...it's a funny sketch which you can find on youtube with his name as a search."

Hmmm......you're right Kevin. Maybe if "Lord of the Rings" and the history of Middle Earth came first we'd believe in that....I wouldn't doubt that people WOULD fall for it.

God bless history's novelists. Hehe.

Haha.
Hell yeah I believe in hobbits!!!

I don't really understand the bible...
It's wicked old... And besides that, there is no "original" bible...
It's been influenced, edited, revised so many times, I wouldn't be surprised if the original WAS something similar to Lord of the Rings.
But whatever. Has anyone read the book "Godless"?
It's about some kids who don't really understand the whole religion thing, so they make their own god. Get this, it's their town water tower.
And why not? People can't survive without water. The tower is big. It's semi restricted. It might be somewhat dangerous.

So, what's more god-like then their water tower?
Think about it. People fear god, respect god, cherish, and cannot actually get in touch with god. So where's the difference? It's this: they can see the water tower. They can't see god.
If you ask me, I'd rather worship something I could see, and comprehend, not something that's, well, out of thin air.

You beleive in God through faith...
Forsaking
All
I
Trust
Him

and tell me what is so special about a water tower.
did it die on the cross for you? no

think about it.

Well i geuss that is the difference between us.
i believe what i beleive and you beleive in something else.

i mean where do you think you go when you die. how do you think everything around you was made?

it most certainly isnt from evolving from dirt and if that was the case "where did the dirt come from?''

I think the computer in front of me was made by some people who actually know shit about making computers.
The house I'm in... Eh. Was made by some builder person some hundred or so years ago.
I was made by my parents[[please, I don't want to think about that.]]
People evolved from monkeys.
Monkeys evolved from some form of rodent[ish] thing.
Which came from something else, eventually dating back to fish!
[[Hehe, we're all spawn of fish. Heh...]]
The fish evolved from non-fish creatures, who came from other whatever-you-wanna-call-'ems.
Which eventually goes on and on back to single cell organisms.
Which, well, probably started out as a strange conglomeration of atoms and protons and... hell... I suck at science AND history.
Well, there's the basics.

Oi, and the dirt is made from decayed plants, broken rocks, etc. Unless you'd prefer the idea that god just upchucked and, whoosh! There be dirt!

If you want to debate any god/creation/thing, it might as well be about what we DON'T have people already explaining.
Say, what's up with all these galaxies all scattered everywhere. Or is there something outside the universe.

But, eh. To each his own.

PS:
Did you know that if the earth was made in a week, Jesus was born, lived, crucified, AND came back, all in under a minute?
Pretty awesome. Life on speed.

XP

Yeah, I know we aren't evolved from monkeys.
Sheesh.
I was going for the quick and simple approach, rather than typing out long, hard to pronounce, names, you know?

PS:: I think it's hilarious that Adam is Hebrew for dirt. Do you, by any chance, know what Eve means?

^
I looked it up. If my sources are correct, then "Eve" is somehow a derivative of the word "chava" which, in Hebrew, means life.

So life was created from dirt's rib. How clever.

^^Says FROOGHE or is it ddavid...

Your words are no longer valid....Sorry but you are not even suppose to speak here. Accept it!

Ok Abby...I'll be nice...!!

But it is Frooghe ya know...

^
Haha, you're caught up in the other thread with Nicko, Noir!

Well I like to multi-task...These people actually like to make trouble in here....

Tut Tut

Hehe.

You scumbags hi-jacked my thread!

Smite them Lord!!! Smite them all to hell!!

Frooghe...Ddavid was here last night, Kevin.

HE hijacked it. Lol.

^^God you're like the school gossip...Lol.

And I missed him/her/it? Damn, I love that guy/girl/thing.

Ah well, there are still others here who offer constant amusement.

Actually Kevin, I hear that you wouldn't see the last of him/her/thing....

In fact he mentioned it as though he were a anarchic villain being foiled by the superheros, when he deafeated escapes and say "You wouldn't hear the last of me...Bwahahaha"....Lol.

He was funny to play with...And such a nut ball..

Kevin.....you mean Kevin.

Yep...he/she/it was pretty hilarious at times.

"said her name is light and for going to light you have to pass through her."
^
Frooghe sounds pretty high and mighty.....that or just creepy and a tad on the crazy side. Lmao.

Jesus I need to rub my eyes...Lol.

Anyways back to the topic:

I believe that in this postmordernist world, religion has lost it's status as a metanarrative.

But here's a question: Paganism or Witchcraft is it a new postmordern religion? Where you can pick and choose whatever Gods, myths, spells etc...You desire...I believe so.

In my view there are divine laws that created us. I have struggled, and am yet struggling in an on going creation, Objectively, I have no concept of a logic that denies eternal laws
Chaos and order can be compared to good and evil, Light and darkness The Balance of The Heart, Soul & Mind" reflects the humanness of us all, and the Divine Redemption, which frees us from ourselves.

Where did god come from? :)

well God has always excisted.
all human kind has a beginning and end.
Thats the way God made us. :)

All I know is that when my pawpaw [[saved]] died he sed as he was dying that he saw Jesus and when a patient[[not saved]] of my moms died,,,she was screaming (there is fire under the bed! Oh God help me! theres fire everywhere!))
sad.

and then she died...

Hey it is funny that she asked for god's help as she was dieing if she would have done that in her life she wouldn't of had that fire greeting instead she would have been met by jesus and the angels

Huh....

Well, I've heard stories like that and all, but I have another way of rationalizing it...

I say that people, when they are about to die, go a bit haywire, and their brain responds in effect to what they think will happen to them...

Although I don't demean this, I certainly do believe that something happens to these people...
Just I don't think there's anything related to god, or a god, for that matter.

I once heard a story which said a man was really sick, and his heart stopped momentarily[[so, he sorta died?]]. When they got him breathing and all again, and after awhile when he was stable enough to talk, he recounted what he thought had happened.

He said that he had started to float a bit, and he had sort of seen himself from above[[out of body experience]], before he started to leave the building. He was heading up, and when he got up high, he felt a warm light on him. Then he sort of felt a zap, and he was yanked back down.
When he told of this, people believed he was crazy. But he told them when he had been "flying," he had seen a shoe on a windowsill, some many floors up from where he was stationed.
Someone decided to look, and, like he said, there was a shoe there.

Now, I'm not saying that I believe him, or any of this "heeby-jeeby" stuff. But I do think that there are things we can't explain out there.
But then again, my rationalization is pretty simple:
Shit happens.

What does it serve people to believe in Religion,

I view religion as a very powerful force. People that only believe in what they see, live in a very small universe. It does seem religion and civilization began about the same time. An ideal religion would create a unity in diversity. In the animal kingdom in which we belong it is natural to lead or be led, Truth is a worthy destination.

what do they get out of it? What needs are met, what service does it give society?

Institutions such as marriage on rare occasions have provided a stable and favorable family environment to meet the need of human social structure.

What is it's worth? I believe a religion is as worthy as the overall good its members evjoy

Is it worth it? Sometimes

Kelsi,

I found you story about your pawpaw seeing jesus on his deathbed, and the non believer screaming about hell and brimstone, quite alarming.

I say this because whilst you are free to express your opinion, in a debate like this I feel that strong suggestive ideas like the one you put forward need to be backed up with either research or at least some theorectical logic. Or the honesty to say that there are quite likely other explanations. You didn't do any of these things and I think you should.

I know Pagans who have seen Mother nature, personified on their deathbeds, relatives who saw angels, friends of friends who saw Aliens come to them when they were close to death. So really, when you think about how little we know about the process of death, and given the huge amount of conflicting stories surrounding it, it's rather presumptious to use the confused and stressed thoughts of a dying person as justification for anything.

Marx once said that "the oppressed" seek in religion what they do not get in "this world". He said that this fulfilment through what many claim, and even claiming in here...Blatantly is illusionary-a kind of spiritual opiate.