Who here believes in god?

Wow, god compared to batman, NOW I've seen it all..

Well, to you people that "know" that god always was and always will be, if he has all of that time, why did he only spend six days creating everything? Why not take a few centuries, and make it ever more perfect? That is just one of my many points that I have repeated to Christians over and over again.

I'm not trying to belittle your faith, infact you're belittling mine, by saying that you KNOW that god is and always will be, because I don't believe that, so therefore, you're insulting me with that..

I am just trying to get answers for the questions that none can answer..

Nookie.

I am with yah sunny

I know I said I was done, but, I'm not, lol.

Batman was an analogy, so that others could better understand it.

I don't understand your question. Why God made the Earth in only six days, as opposed to centuries... Is that what you're asking? Well, if so...

Why should God do that? Why should God create the entire world over centuries? If God really wanted to, He could have made it all in a single day, but He didn't. The reason being, He chose, and wanted to do it over the time period of six days, resting on the seventh. His doing that gave us the template of our week: six days of work, and one day of rest (as to why each day is what it is, is a different discussion). The reason God's creation is not perfect is this: It wasn't His plan to have it perfect. Sure it started out that way, but God had everything planned out before He even thought of creating earth. Eve's temptation in the garden wasn't an "oops". It was planned.

As to us belittling your faith. We aren't insulting you. What you've said makes no sense at all. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true. If we have offended you with our views and opinions, then, I'm sorry. But not everyone is going to agree with you. You don't agree with me, but that doesn't offend me, so I don't understand why our disagreeing with you makes a big deal. I don't believe that God DOESN'T exist, but I don't feel like you're attacking me. Besides, if you don't believe in God, what faith DO you have? I'm not saying that believing in God is the only faith there is. I'm asking what do you believe in? From your above posts, it's kind of hard to tell...

Anyway, I'm going to go, now. Thinking about it now, I guess I'm not completely ready to drop this... I don't know if that's good or bad with some of you, but anyway. Take care...

~Ciao Lipton

Also Nookie, I would also like to point out that a day to us may or may not actually be 24 hours to God. To show you what I mean: A day to God could very well be a centruy to us. Or a day to us may only be a second to God. (I hope this makes some sense, if not I will ellaborate more later) This is only my oppenion...I'm not saying that I am right about it, it's just how I think of it. For me, it makes it easier for me to understand how he could have created all the complicated science of plants and animal in that amount of time. For the other Christians reading this, don't think that I am trying to contradict anyone's beliefs, this was an explanation to me when I was very young and wanted to know exactly what Nookie wants to know. This is what I was told, and like I said, it made it easier for me to understand. After this, like Lipton said, the world was perfect for a time.

Well when you make something, don't you want it to be as close to perfect as possible? If you are god, and you have all eternity and more to make everthing we know, why not make it perfect? Why not make a world without suffering, why not make a world that he wouldn't need to flood, why not make a world that he wouldn't have to give his only son too? That doesn't seem like a very good plan, it seems to me like instead of resting the seventh day, he could have eliminated temptation, and dodged this whole mess.

And this of course is me trying to speak as if I believe this, which I really don't, but I have read the bible many times to make sure that there isn't anything I have overlooked. To make my beliefs clear, I believe nothing, I don't believe in a god or an afterlife, there is just too much data supporting the alternative for me to believe anything.

There are just too many things about religion that one cannot understand, making it an effort that is not even worth it to me, put all your faith in something you don't understand, nope, not me.

Nookie.

The answer to the first question is yes, the second is not known by anyone whom is not perfect. Who decides what is perfect? You are very prideful in assuming that what God could have done is what he should have done. It is very interesting that you cannot make a distinction between religion and God I cannot make a distinction between God and Love You said before that your faith was insulted then you said you believe nothing I hope that is not what is in your heart. God is Light. Look into the night sky and tell me what happens to the light from the sun when it touches nothing

Nothing without Love

The whole problem with the, "What God created wasn't perfect idea" is that, what Micheal said, our definition of perfect differs from God's. What we need to understand is that the world and everything that happened, IS perfect. Perfect according to what God wanted. Perfect as it is planned. It may not seem like a good plan to us, but, it was good to God.

See, I'm writing a book. It's easier to put things into perspective that way. I, in a sense, am God, creating this whole other world where my creations interact with one another. I create conflict and whatnot to keep it interesting. Now, that's MY reason for doing that. God's reason for creating conflict in our lives may be totally different. However, when I'm done writing this book, I can look back at it, and say, "It's perfect, according to what I feel should happen." And God did the same thing with us.

In fact, God didn't even HAVE to create the world. He just did. I don't truly know why, but He did. Just like me and my book. No one truly knows WHY I wrote it, unless I tell them, and God, not to my knowledge, has not told us why He created us. All we know is that He did.

I don't think I made my points as clear as I hoped to, but it's late anyway, and I should be in bed. 'Night all.

~Ciao Lipton

PS: Nice bit, there, Michael

Nice folks...nice.

How many of the Christians in here who believe 100% in the big guy, believe that he actually made all the plants and animals in one day?

What i mean to say is, who believes in evolution and who believes in creationism?

I think creationism is about the most illogical and far fetched theory i've ever heard...in fact given all the scientific and biological data that contradicts it, i'd be willing to put my ass on the line here and say it's actual PROOF that the story of Genesis is a big fat lie...a fabrication constructed by "Holy" men in a time when common people were poorly educated and highly superstitious.

Weird eh? That we all know how plants and animals breed, pollenate and grow...splitting off into new variations...we understand how living things can, over the course of generations, change their physical makeup...yet still thousands of Christians refuse to accept evolution as a fact thus throwing the WHOLE of the bible into disrepute.

Well, before any of you in here do....i have a one word question for you, borrowed from the late and great Bill Hicks.

Dinosaur.

go on, i dare ya.

I do not believe in evolution, only in creationism. And I believe 100% that God created animals and plants in one day (if you read my post before, you know what I believe about this). Now that you're trying to slightly change the subject, I will tell you what I think of evolution.

I think that evolutioin happened to an extent. I do not think we came from amebas and monkeys. However, I do think that we have ADAPTED to our enviorment over time (as have the animals), thus changing the organisms, and giving them all their "evolutionary" stages.

This is what I think has happened, but lets try to stay on subject...and not make this forum become one that will address every single disputable subject know to Christians.

I think it-itty, that if we are discussing belief in God and ALL the possibilities that go along with that, then surely the issue of whether or not God created the earth as explained in the bible is true or false is an important point...perhaps one of the most important.

So you believe in evolution a little bit? Strange that you acknowledge living organisms can and do change to adapt better to life in their environment but you don't want to accept that this is how little amebas work as well. I wonder, are you a fundamentalist Christian? The reason i ask is that i'm curious how long you think evolution has been going on for assuming you do not believe in the big bang theory. If you admit that life changes to suit it's environment and survive better then what do you think would happen if simple organism[ like an Ameba were left to do this for 40 million years as evolutionists put forward?

I reckon theres plenty space in there for us talking apes to have appeared from the primordial soup.

Unless that is, like fundemantalist Christians you believe the world is only 6000 years old because thats the ages of all the people in the bible added together. How amazingly scientific...i had not idea you guys had went to so much trouble with a calculator to work that one out.

hey kev
take it easy with that PROOF that the story of Genesis is a big fat lie..I Feel like I am being fed to the lions over here. lol just kidding. As you pointed out earlier the bible was written by men and translated many times. that is what was I talking about historical accuracy I do not believe the story of Genesis was early attempt at journalism. It is quite obvious that the author of genesis never attended a physics class or a biology class. The theory of evolution has always appealed to me as solid science. The current Pope believes evolution has been proven as scientific fact. This is the same Pope, which cleared Galileo Galilei of the heresy charges. Galileo supported the Copernican theory, which was that the earth revolved around the sun. Galileo was said to have been a stanch catholic and Copernicus was a bishop who discovered the truth that he was afraid to reveal. The creation story is still to me very poetic. I may need to do further research. But I think it is interesting to note that the battle in heaven is not detailed in Genesis, Revelation is written I believe much latter. Yet the fallen angel or serpent is a key figure in the story. from a mystical point of view time is more important in the physical world
A poet by the name of John Milton elaborates on this in Paradise Lost. The bible is important to me as a spiritual guide. I have been disappointed, by proclaimed Christians, many times. But I am not ready to feed them to the lions yet. Please let me share in this discussion a poem I wrote about a dispute with my fellow Christians who said that a woman that I was infatuated with was evil. Sorry I got carried away

Eve of My Life

can be found on this site

All right, agreeded about discussing all possibilities.

I would have to be ignorant not to acknowledge that living organisms can and do change to adapt to their enviorment. No, I am not a fundamentalist Christian. So obviously I do not believe the world is only 6000 years old. I believe that 'evolution' has been going on since Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden. No one knows for certain when that was.

I am not certain what an Ameba would do to tell you the truth. I think it would probably become bigger or change colors to avoid preditors or whatever it need to do to surive--but don't think that by getting bigger I mean that it will grow into an animal one day...that is not what I think would happen. I do not in any way think that they would eventually become an animal, only stay a cell.

Here's a thought: If we evolved from Amebas and apes, why did they stop? Why are there still Amebas and apes around? Wouldn't they have evolved too?

good point it itty

Our understanding of the creator or for that matter creation has been divided for centuries trying to express a spiritual experience to a nonbeliever could easily be compared to a high flying bird trying to express that experience to a deep sea fish. as i thought when I wrote helper of men for an agnostic friend of mine

Helper of men
is posted on this site

Ok ok ok. The answer to why there are still apes and single-cell organisms around..My theory is this, evolution happens because of your climate, how you get food, how clean your food is, how healthy you are, where you sleep, what hunts your kind, etc. etc. So basically that means that if apes and man came from the same sort of pre-ape form, then the ape species we know today either stayed where they were and evolved to what they are, or moved to another area. Thus, if the different species were formed, then there is a good chance that man was one of those groups that wandered off, and over time got smarter, and strayed away from walking on all fours and other animal qualities.

Here's another interesting question, why do people have tailbones? We have no tails..But apes do...

Or how are our organs so similar to that of a pig?

You see, the thought of man evolving from monkeys makes genesis completely false, that is why you say that evolution started AFTER the exile from Eden. So when did all of this Eden stuff really happen? Did it happen before the dinosaurs, and we somehow lived through what killed them? Or did it happen after?

And my final question to you, why would you create a world in which you would have to send your own son to death in, just to help the things that you made, when you could have just made them better in the first place?

Nookie.

well without appearing hostile it seems you have more questions than you have answers. This world has a lot of problems that needs attending. the technology of the accidently evolved apes has reached the point were these hi tech apes have the power the end all human sufferig. they can be patient or they can just destroy the world surely this accident of life will happen again in a few billion years Nookie if you were in charge of the cause every man should unite under what cause would that be?

oh the answer to the last question is a mystery and a very good question

I have an answer for this, but I don't have the time... I'll post it later.

~Ciao Lipton

Again, Kevin, you're trying to use science and logic to disprove the unscientific, and illogical. But if science is what you want, here's some.

The geological clock of adding the generations up is not the only way scientists can find out how old the world is. There are over 70 different methods to show how old the earth is.

GEO-CLOCK EXAMPLE 1:
Erosion. SCIENTISTS have assumed that erosion was very great in the past, due to the way the world was. However, SCIENTISTS also know that even at the present rate of erosion, there should be 30x more sediment in the ocean then there is. Even more, at this constant rate, all of the continents would have been eroded around 14 million years.

GEO CLOCK EXAMPLE 2:
SCIENTISTS have studied Niagra falls for quite some time, and have determined it's rate of erosion per year. SCIENTISTS admit that it has only taken 5,000 years to erode from its original precipice.

GEO CLOCK EXAMPLE 3:
SCIENTISTS have also studied oil pressure beneath sedimentary rock. When an oil driller hits a pocket of oil, it shoots up into a geysur (sp?). All sedimentary rock is somewhat porous. With time, the pressure of the oil would dissipate. SCIENTISTS say that if the oil was there for more than 5,000 years, then there would be no pressure.

GEO CLOCK EXAMPLE 4
Everything in space is collecting dust (called interplanetary dust). That means, so is the moon.
NASA experts were expecting to see tremendous amounts of dust on the moon, seeing as the earth is "4.5 billion years old". In fact, they expected we would encounter 54 inches of it! However, when the first men landed on the moon, the most we found in a given area was 3 inches... and some places were as low as 1/8 of an inch. SCIENTISTS have admitted that it would only take about 8000 years to accumulate this amount.

GEO CLOCK EXAMPLE 5:
SCIENTISTS have made a public announcement that the sun is shrinking five feet every hour (but, seeing as the sun is millions of miles in diameter, then this isn't much). SCIENTISTS said that this is has been going on since the sun was in existance. Well, working backwards (adding five feet for every hour going backwards in time) we end up with the sun twice its diameter in 100,000 years, and in 200,000 years, the sun would be touching the earth!

GEO CLOCK EXAMPLE 6:
Supposing each family has had an average of 2.5 kids, then it would take only 4,000 years to have this present population.
With "millions" of years behind us, tho, there would be a total of 25,000 generations (each dying at about 40 years of age), and each family averaging at 2.5 children. These statistics show that the earth's pop. would grow about .5% each year. With "millions" of years behind us, and these statistics, today's population would be 10, with 2,100 zeros after it! "Well, more people died back then then they do now, because they didn't have the medical advancements and such!" Well, having that, 3,000 billion people would have died to have today's population. That's incredible, because ancient bones are rare...

GEO CLOCK EXAMPLE 7:
SCIENTISTS have observed the moon, and have declared that it is moving away from the earth at about two inches per year. Working backwards, the moon would have been on the earth's surface 2 billion years ago, and by now, the moon would be completely out of sight!

These are only a few. I don't want to type all of them out.

"Well that's what Carbon dating, and our other dating sources tell us," they say. Well...

Uranium is used to test the age of the earth. However, SCIENTISTS have tried several times with uranium, and each result was drastically different from each other.

Carbon 14:
C-14 decay is speeded up by:
1: Atmospheric pollution such as volcanoes and industrial burning.
2: Solar activity such as solar flares and sunspots.
3: Cosmic radiation as from supernovas.
4: Meteors or other cosmic bodies.

Also, when C-14 dating was used on these things, this was the result:
-LIVING mollusks. C-14 revealed: Dead for 2,300 years
-FRESH sealskins. C-14 says: decaying for 1,300 years
-Mortar from a castle known to be only 800 years. C-14 says: decayed for 7,370 years
-Saber-tooth tiger. By looking at the geological chart, SCIENTIST estimate this thing to be 100,000-1,000,000 years old. Radioactive testing shows 2,800.
-Natural Gas. Supposed to be 50,000,000 years old by chart, revealed by C-14 dating to be 34,000.
-Coal supposed to be 100,000,000 years old. C-14 says 1,680 years old.

What do we believe when science contradicts itself?

D. M. S. Watson said:
"The theory of evolution is universally accepted not because it can be proven by logical, coherent evidence to be true, but because it is the only alternative to Special Creation, which is clearly incredible."

I'm sorry, but if we can't even get our facts straight about the alternative (Evolution) yet some believe it anyway, that appears to be more incredible. You say it doesn't make sense that we believe in God because He is unexplained. I say, how can you believe in this, when it contradicts itself in so many different ways?

I have plenty more on this subject, but I've already written too much. Sorry if I sound like I'm fighting with you. I like to see this as more of a discussion. Anyway, I have double-checked and triple-checked my numbers to make sure I didn't add any extra zeros...

~Ciao Lipton

"GEO CLOCK EXAMPLE 5:
SCIENTISTS have made a public announcement that the sun is shrinking five feet every hour (but, seeing as the sun is millions of miles in diameter, then this isn't much). SCIENTISTS said that this is has been going on since the sun was in existance. Well, working backwards (adding five feet for every hour going backwards in time) we end up with the sun twice its diameter in 100,000 years, and in 200,000 years, the sun would be touching the earth!"

I believe in God, but I think you are either misinterpreting information or reading misinterpreted information. There is no conclusive evidence that shows that:
1. the sun is decreasing at that rate (type "sun decrease rate Gilliland 1981" into google)
2. the sun has been constantly decreasing at ANY rate. it was shown to be entirely possible, using evidence recorded from the 18th century and onwards, that the sun could oscilate between expansion and contraction.

in fact, most of the evidence and conclusions concerning the contraction of the sun work off the old "Kevin-helmholtz" model, which is pre-nuclear fusion. Now that we know a little bit about the sun, that model has been discarded. As for the rest of your information, I'm not sure. I would suggest reading some stuff on both sides of the argument. I typed a few things into google and all sorts of contradictory evidence popped up.

i believe in God, like bob shank said, you'll NEVER understand without faith, no one can force anything on anyone, so you find it on your own, you are liable for your life, ultimately can do what YOU want, so YOUR the only one who can decide what you belive...i belive in God

Ok, lets say that the Garden of Eden theory is true...and maybe if Evolution is also true, then it started after the creation of the garden.

No one in here i hope, can deny the existence of Dinosaur's...i mean, if one of you gives me that;

"God put Dinosaur fossils here to test our faith" line i'll puke all over you. So, Dinosaurs are real, they totally existed...fact! Can someone point out to me one single Dinosaur in the Bible?...or even mentioned in the Garden of Eden/Genesis story?....i mean if God created all the animals and birds etc and put them all in the Garden....you think there'd be at least one tale of a Dinosaur eating someone.....even afterwards in JC's time

"And yay Jesus and his Desciples walked along the path to the holy city when all of a sudden John screamed
Oh what a big fecking lizard Lord!"

I don't think you'll find it mentioned anywhere. So, aside from debating the age of the earth...lets look at what we know for sure and try and link it up to what the bible claims is fact.

I am quite prepareed to be wrong..to be proven wrong...just don't mentioned Faith or the infinite Mysteries of God cause it reeks of detraction.

In fact, Dinos are mention in the Bible. In Job, I think, there is talk about a behemoth, and leviathan. When described, they match the exact description of some of the dinosaurs that walked the earth. So, there you have it. Dinos in the Bible, and no faith or Infinite Mysteries for ya.

~Ciao Lipton

I am indeed impressed with the highly evolved brains of the apes. As I stated earlier there is another approach to this debate. None have commented on the fact that there are many Christians who do not have a problem with the thought that God works in mysterious ways and that Genesis was inspired by mans natural curiosity as to his origin. I have always sympathized with Charles Darwin. I believe he was a seeker of the truth. I spent eight years in a catholic school and I suppose many of you are wondering if when they washed my brain, did they wax it too.?I have read many books on philosophy. The Christians of the medieval times, would have been horrified by this discussion. I do not deny that religion has been used as a political tool. Even long before the authorities of the time of Jesus used it to crucify Him. I am not saying religion is not being used today. I am a philosopher. I am writing this In the year of our Lord 2OO4 DEC 28. I know I am going to appear pompous to Kevin and Nookie. But truth is always good no matter if you were accidentally evolved from a single celled life form. Or you were created in the image and likeness of God. You would be a fool to deny that Jesus has changed the course of history but that does not prove he is God. It is interesting to note that, God is rarely spelled with a capital g by those whom doubt. But the words such as PROOF have been accented. I don’t mean to be offensive. But Kevin in his passion to prove that he is nothing more than a highly evolved ape requested that we not detract from the original topic by admitting that some things by nature, are beyond mans understanding. Nookie professes he can not believe in what he can’t understand. He seemed to have a problem with always was and always will be. I would be interested in what he believes about the scientific theory that matter nor energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So doesn’t that mean that every thing that is, always was and always will be. It is nice to know that everything in an infinite universe can be explained by mathematics, or better yet the random firing of the neurons in an accidentally evolved apes brain. I want to finish with a bio-clock challenge, bear with be if you think it is too simple. We all have a mother and father our mother had a mother and father. And our father had a mother and father. Let me illustrate

Two parents
Four grand parents
Eight great grand parents
Sixteen great great grand parents
Thirty two great great great grand parents
Notice the number doubles every generation.
Now let's say on average a generation is 20 years
Let's take a finite number of years say 6000
Let's say 6000years =300 generations
1st=1
2nd=2
3rd=4
4th=8
5th=16
6th=32
7th=64
8th=128
9th=256
10th=512
11th=1024
12th=2048
13th=4096
14th=8192
15th=16384
16th=32768
17th=65536
18th=131072
19th=262144
20th=524288

Oh my, this is a predicament, if I use this logic to find out how many ancestors I have had since Adam and Eve, don’t I need to find a way to decrease these numbers?524288 is only the number of people it took to suffer and die from the time of Christ, that is how many parents it took to make it possible for me to think about this? The problem only gets more complicated if I try to go back farther so never mind

I'm not entirely sure if I understand your bio clock argument, but aren't you ignoring cases of mass death and destruction e.g. wars and the great plague? If not, sorry, I don't understand your argument all that well. However, if I understand your earlier point correctly, then I agree with you. Let me attempt to get my feelings across, and if it turns out that our views are not similar, then I apologize for misunderstanding:

I currently walk in the footsteps of many men of science, including Einstein, Darwin, and Newton. I believe that God does exist, and that he had an active role to play in the creation of the universe. However, I think there are definite processes that are ongoing in nature. These processes, such as natural and sexual selection, appear to change species. If this is so, I can only imagine that it is God's will that it does so. As far as a strict interpretation of the Bible goes, I've read it a few time, along with the Talmud, Koran, some teachings of Buddha, etc, whatever, so on blah blah. I think that a literal interpretation of the Bible can only confuse things a bit. I try to stay away from confusing problems like, "If we count days by one rotation of the Earth, then how could God have made anything in a number of 'days' before there was an Earth?" Meh, seems like a pointless question to me, who cares how long He took in doing it. In fact, who cares how long the Earth has been around at all? Does it matter in the course of your faith? I think I digress. I think one problem people have with the existence of God is a problem with infinity. An infinite regression of anything seems impossible. However, I would like to point out that in Christianity, God has been in existence forever. In current scientific theory, the universe has been around for so long, but something has existed before it. The Big Bang theory does not allow for the big bang to have occured from nothingness. The universe was not created from nothing, there was something there first. Quantum theory suggests that there was a 10 dimentional universe that collapsed into a 6 dimentional and 4 dimentional universe. What existed before the 10 dimentional universe? Who knows? The same problem with infinity exists no matter where you turn. I'm not entirely sure how the Big Bang theory conflicts with the existence of a god.

let me explian the bio clock challenge let's suppose that your great grandfather was killed in a war he would still have a place in your geneology . soppose you were reading an account of your great grand father that stated he was killed before he had a chance to concieve your grandfather. so you can can remove him as an ancestor. that presents another problem how did your granfather get born without being concieved? the same would apply if he died in a plague I know it is a mind twister and I have found a way to remove anscestors but that one does not work

Sean Allen

I just want you to know that what you wrote makes a lot of sense to me. we are on the same side of the debate. God bless you. The bio clock thing was something that crossed my mind a long time ago when I was studying my own geneology. i could not resist getting some thoughts on it. I guess visualizing what a chart that went back to adam and eve would look like is difficult for someone who has not spent hours looking at geneology charts.

can anyone who would spell PROOF with a capital P prove that they had a mother and father?

can anyone prove that their mother had a mother and father?
can anyone prove that their father had a mother and father?
can anyone prove that their maternal gandfather had a mother and father
can anyone prove their paternal gandfather had a mother and father?
can anyone prove that any of thier greart gradfathers had fathers and mothers ect >>>>>>>

I know people who have a video tapes of their mothers squezzing them out into the world.

After answering Ali post about how i effected her with my words...i have no desire to upset anyone else and so i am stepping out of this discussion.

It as fun....and i learned a few things.

Respects...and lang may yer lums reek!!

It is interesting to note that in this discussion I have counted at least four people who were raised catholic in my first conversation with Kevin I pointed out that he misinterpreted what I was trying to say. Kevin quickly apologized for a harsh paraphrasing. Even though I was grateful for the gesture I wanted to take responsibility for not making myself clear. Now I would like to apologize to Kevin, or anyone else if I harshly paraphrased any comment they might have made. Many of the participants of this discussion including myself have put some time into it. And I believe wholeheartedly that we all share a deep love for humanity. My perception of everyone has evolved as I became more interested in how they felt about God. We are all very enthusiastic about our feelings. I believe everyone admitted to a shortcoming, which is a very nice word for sin. Being nice is very important if you are an alcoholic like me, and full of guilt. I don’t think about hell a lot, but I think about purgatory because I have been there. Admitting to shortcomings is the seventh step in AA You see when we do or say things that offend, it seems to separate us from each other. So I try to adapt to my political climate so I won’t end up like the dinosaurs. You don’t need a weatherman to witch way the wind blows. Kahlil Gibran a catholic who was exiled from his country and excommunicated from the catholic church once said ‘if you told the truth for 5 minutes your friends would leave 10 minutes you would be exiled 15 and You would be hanged’. unquote The church has evolved a great deal since a philosopher compared it to an unfaithful woman he loved her even though he said I know she lies. I am sorry if have appeared harsh to anyone. So if you can’t accept the God of my understanding you can go to hell. Sorry just kidding that is between you and the God of your understanding. We assume we know Him from what we read. If I may quote from a saint, which spent his early years offending Christians, ‘GOD IS LOVE’. If I Were writing a poem I would end it there. But I want to share some more things if have learned so far in this discussion some of the false assumptions which stand out in my mind is that all those who dispute the historical accuracy of the bible hold nothing sacred, that all read the same bible. You cannot believe in God without understanding everything that is written about him. In the course of my study of my genealogy I have discovered many errors in recorded history in the library. The cause of one such error was based on assumption. The person who had my grandfathers tome stone engraved must have requested that the word father be engraved at the top of the tomb stone so engraved vertically was FATHER BERNARD NALLEY so in the library the person who recorded it decided to clarify FATHER and writes beside it[ priest ]
If you have took my challenge of the multiplying forefathers, foremothers also. I don’t want to offend the cause of inclusion , one way to solve the mystery is to remember a person can hold more than one title for instance my paternal great great grandfather was also my maternal great great great granfather . I hope to read comments bye for now I love you all.

why do we have a god? because people find comfort in knowing that there is a higher power looking over us. and they find comfort in knowing that if they are good in life then they will go somewhere nice.

i think that we all make up god. every single one of us are a part of god and when one of us dies, a new person is born. just like the cells in our body. when one of them dies off new ones are created. so we all make up god. we all are god. and when someone prays to god. you are just praying to everyone around and pleading for help. then sooner or later someone will come in a do a good thing for you. we answer each others prayers.

do you guys actually believe in all the stories in the bible?

and organized religions are more stupid than anything. they are just a way to keep people in line. all those pathetic rules and how they just tell you the way to live your life. you are just living under another government.

i used to be a strong believer in all of this but then i started to be more reasonable and started looking at the other side. and i realized how pathetic it is.

I had a beautiful heart warming reply to these questions but just as was finishing the login poped up and I lost it all, so i will just bluntly comment
Lisa. answered her own question it is not the answer I would have given. but since this is a message board I will ask a question. Do you think man created God? or God created man?' Why do we have a God?' This question????Implies that we have a choice. Feel free to disagree and comment on my comment. When you love, you should not say God is in my heart but rather I am in the heart of God. as I stated in the reply above I don't think it is wise to be overly cencerned with the historical accuracy of the bible. there are many metaphors in bible stories you must be in the proper frame off mind to recieve the timeless messsages in the stories. Many of the laws of man that have been made through the ages seem stupid. but laws are supposed to be for our own protection A rapest might think that laws against rape are pathitc someone who whats your possessions might think laws against stealing are pathetic. Someone who wants to harm you might find laws against assalt to be pathitic. Be aware that what goes around comes around I don't see anyone having a problem with a loving God who will protect them. I confess those rules get in my way sometimes too
THE GOD OF MY UNDERSTANDING IS PERFECT
I DO NOT CLIAM TO BE PERFECT. THE LAST TIME SOMEONE WAS PERFECT HE WAS CRUCIFIED
i love you guys may God bless you

Ok me I don't believe in any god never did. What I believe in is the scientific explanation I mean is it really logical that GOD made the world in a week just like the saying rome wasn't built in a day well guess what it wasn't built in a week either! and where did he come from and what he was just sitting aroung one day then decided just for the hell of it to make a world with trees and flowers and human being out of no where ummm let me think NO! and you may think your god is perfect and never does wrong or what ever I reAlly don't care I am sorry if this offened anyone but just my thoughts
~Ariana I. Moreno~

I think if you look up a few posts you will find my answer to God creating everything in a week. Once you read that, also think about this...when God created the world, there really was no "day" yet, because the world would not have been rotating around the sun at that point in time. But no (we've been over this throughly as well) it's not logical, to Christians, it's just faith. But I have to ask you this, wouldn't it comfort you to know without a doubt that there is someone that will help you through everything--one perfect being that you can relly on with all your heart? Also, just look at you first quote--maybe your unanswered question is the answer.

God Bless

P.S. Michael and Lipton, I loved reading your posts, well said.

Thank you It Itty

That is a good point it itty. I would also add that anyone who has read the bible knows that the prophecies are numerous how does science explain that? To those who believe proof is not necessary to those who do not there is no proof possible. There is a story about an
athiest who was admiring a model of our solor system
He turned to Isacc Newton and asked who made this?
Newton replied; no one it just happened. The admirer was insulted, and said; do you think I am a fool? Newton reminded the man that the solar system was vastly more complex than the model yet he believed it just happened. I am amazed at the things of sience that some defend religiously with simple logic. but respond to an older belief with indeference and say watever I don't care. Yet I do thank them for their permission to believe what I was taught. Without meaning to be offesive note nonbelievers say your God as opposed to our God which comfirms that God does not reject rather is rejected. but it is somehow not comforting to know that anyone who rejects love does not care. GOD BLESS YOU

yes itty I know what my quote said and yes you are right I am not going by what I said but I just don't think it's logical and I was never rised around any sort of religon and yeah people find comfort in knowing someone is there for them 24/7 but You see I think that is what could make me stronger because by knowing not to have anyone but myself to take the joy and pain and love of life with no one but myself to blame or congratulate.

Congratulations on not blaming anyone for your pain. I as a christian have struggled with the question of why the all knowing and loving God gave man a free will knowing it would cause him pain. What is the first thing Adam does when he feels the emotional pains of fear and shame. He says; it was that woman that You put here. He did not explian to God that he was just a series of accidents that science would explian about 6000 years latter. Maybe Adam could have even been uncertian about his own existance. He did not say where in hell did that snake come from anyway? If you did not want us to eat that fruit why did you put the tree in the middle of the garden. o Lord You should have modified my brain while you were tampering with my rib. Why couldn't an ape that evolved by a series of countless accidents in favor of life have thought of a story with a happy ending?If I read the story with reverence and I am focused on a spiritual message rather than the historical accuracy I don't believe I am wasting my time.
Many feel betrayed by religion. Many poeple feel betrayed by people. But worse many feel betrayed by God. It is a nice thought not ever blaming someone else for our pain. I suppose their would be no need for forgiveness, if you do not blame anyone. Maybe religion would never have crucified God. If you blame yourself for your pain would it be within the power of an accidentally evolved ape to forgive his or her self?

Well, once again, I typed up a post, but I got kicked offline (stupid AOL) before I could send it.

Free will is incredibly hard to explain. As I see it, God already has a plan of events to happen, and can forsee what will happen. Therefore, He puts certain circumstances in our lives so that His plan will be played out. God knows how we will act to certain things, so nothing ever takes Him by surprise. Not that that has anything to do with what we're talking about.

People feel betrayed by God:
1) Because their friends/family die (a common fact of life)
2) Because their friends/family have near-death experiences that handicap them for life. (Yet another common fact)
3) He's "unfair".

Do forgive me if I sound harsh with the death factor. I mean, it is a common fact of life, but staring at it all the time isn't going to help anything get better, and, once again, I apologize if that sounds harsh.

We, as humans, can't understand God, nor can we counter Him. We can make our plans, but how they're carried out depends on God. Normally (at least for me) when my plans are messed up or something, I always end up doing something better, or more constructive (it may not be as fun).

We blame each other because of sin. No one wants to take responsibility for their actions, and if they do, they want to shift it onto as many other people as possible. We can't avoid doing it, because it's our nature. Yes, some people do it less than others, but everyone shifts the blame (or at least has) at least once in your life. Finding a scapegoat is inevitable... And when someone does something to you, that isn't right, you aren't just going to sit there and say, "Well, I guess it's ok. I'll just have to pay for his wrongdoing for only a fraction of my life... not all of it." You're going to do everything in your power to shift the blame from you to this other person... Blame is inevtiable. Sin is inevitable... So, whether we had the capacity to forgive ourselves, and others instantly, there would still be sin, so Christ would still have had to come and be a pure sacrifice for humanity...

That's my bit.

~Ciao Lipton

Excellent Point Lipton

you are blessed with the gift of wisdom

~Edited out!~

There has been, in these messages, a lot of talk about logic. The self reliant people always see faith as opposing logic [I mean of course the ones who want to give FAITH that much dignity]. People who prefer to put their trust in a higher power see faith as something above reason rather than below it Some people on the other hand do not wish to acknowledge anything they cannot perceive with natural senses. They are insulted by the thought that some entity perceives what they cannot.
Even though it is never far from us we can go for long periods without perceiving air. Unless something causes our respiration to increase or we are moving faster. Or the wind blows. The point I am trying to make is, that at least one of the senses must be satisfied. I personally have never seen, heard, smelled, touched, or tasted the ocean. I have no doubt at
all that the ocean exists. I have personally never been in the void of outer space. I am not sure anyone living has.[ Let me explain I do not doubt that a man wearing an artificial pressure suit has. That is not natural. In other words the suit is in the vacuum and the man is in the suit. Outer pressure, and temperature have to be relatively stable to support life.] Now I am going to talk about something entirely different. How many of the atheist on this site are offended by this line from a song, Can’t see it with your eyes hold it in your hand, but it is strong enough to rule the heart of any man. Many atheist profess the logic of avoiding what they do not understand. They criticize as much as the Christians that they say are just trying to control them. Don’t get me wrong, I do not want to scare anyone from expressing their own feelings But here is an example of someone trying to use reason to control behavior. I posted a poem on this site that is published in my book and another book of poems. And is on my website where someone from India stumbled onto it online, and selected it out of many choices. They sent me an email requesting permission to publish in an anthology ‘Explorers a Collection of Contemporary Literature.’ I only got one really bad vote on this poem. The thing that amazed me was that I posted under faith and religion. I admit in favor of faith and religion. After the critic attemps to place reason high above faith, notice at the end he offers me luck. I do not believe in luck This is an actual paste of his comment on my poem. A Poet’s Prayer

Love-forsaken Mike ( F C ) at 2004-10-09

A true poet writes from the heart....not from a self-inflicted void.

You chose to confide in a phantom...but never is there a time too late for change. I doubt that you'll reconsider your lifestyle...but I will, at the very least, plant seeds of doubt. People fear change and embrace consistency.
----------------------------------
As far as the poem is concerned...

The meter is decent... while the almost-prevalent depth is obscured by pity and unoriginality.

If you wish to live a lie...at least bring to it a new light. Rather than showing the reader devotion or showing him/her the adversities faced when believing in a fairytale...show him/her an aspect not so commonly seen.

We can look at the glass from many different angles. Find the one that best reflects your psyche and use it.

Good luck.

i think man created god because everyone wants to know why we are here. that is why there are so many religions. everyone is so caught up in trying to figure out why we are here. and they put all these theories together.