Tolerance

Do you think tolerance is getting to the point where we're overcompensating for past mistakes of our forefathers (ie. racism, sexism etc) and as a result, loosing our culture in certain countries and thus creating a reverse tolerance to our own individualism? Or do you think that we should tolerate anyone, even if it means we are going against our own beliefs and culture?

Ie. In a Christian-based society, should children be able to wear the hijab to school even if Christian children are not allowed to wear a cross on their necklace? The situation in Zimbabwe and South Africa where to be African means you get the jobs first, rather than based on experience and education? Do you think Christmas should be celebrated without the telling of the birth of Christ or any religious symbols in case it offends someone not Christian?

I'd just like to hear your views...

I think the sins of the father should remain the sins of the father...So to speak.

If you look at Zimbabwe, you will see that ever since Robert Mugabe has become President, all white-owned farms were invaded and parliment pushed that all white-owned farms were seized without reimburstment or payment.

Would he have done that if we left the sins of the fathers behind...?

Tolerance is one thing, but everyone from what I see is scared of other cultures rather than embracing it and accepting it.

People are actually not learning about one another's culture...They are forced to learn it.

Very interesting idea Mo, not just a pretty face and ass kicking body eh?

I think we are having to deal with the mistakes of our past, and I do not say our Fathers, because it's was their future, and now it's our past, as messed up as it may be we cannot blame them too much for it. Our generation, and by that I mean anyone who is 16 to 30ish has had plenty of time to effect change.

It's like when you have a job. When something goes wrong, like an accident at work, or in the case of our cultural history, rascism, we suddenly need to deal with it, a problem or issue that was common and still is common sense to most people, now has to be regulated and socially imposed.

So in the case of problems at work, you get all kinds of new rules about safety, forms to fill in etc..in the case of social issues, suddenly words are taboo and we have to overcompensate for the lacking of the past.

I have absolute faith it will even out and rebalance itself.

Really? Im afraid I dont share your faith Kevin.

Its almost like tipping the scales too far in one direction means its going to reverse the outcome in years to come when the scales are tipped onto the other side - overcompensation is not a way to solve problems. We all come from different backgrounds (and although we shouldn't carry the sins of our forefathers, unfortunately, we dont live in a very forgetful world where sins are returned to the dust along with the sinner).

However, why force something to such an extent that it renders everyone common - where is the acceptance of the individual streak through society? Its now full of double standards (where the ones previously being prejudiced are now becoming the condemned and visa versa). If we feel the need to make a change because its wrong - surely we should do it fairly where no one is considered to be more or less favourable in society.

Know what I mean? We're selling ourselves down the river when we start to "give back the lost time" which we were not responsible for taking.

SAND AND FOAM
BY KAHLIL GIBRAN

Courtesy of Kahlil Gibran Online. www.kahlil.org

"Had I filled myself with all that you know what room should I have for all that you do not know?

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.

A bigot is a stone-leaf orator.

The silence of the envious is too noisy.

When you reach the end of what you should know, you will be at the beginning of what you should sense.

An exaggeration is a truth that has lost its temper."

http://www.kahlil.org/sandpf.html

Well yes in a way I suppose it can come down to that - but at the same time - its not so much that everyone doesn't give a damn but more that the government (and a lot of people) are so scared to step on people's toes that we have become a wishy-washy society who acts on "politically correct" impulses rather than the conviction of our hearts or upbringings.
I can "tolerate" a person without having to agree with them. I can not offend someone at the same time as I can not take on board their personal mannerisms or cultural differences. Tolerance is quickly becoming used as a scapegoat, and being taken out of context, to justify so many actions that are made purely out of fear of condemnation.

I have noticed that governments and people that attempt to protect the general public from belief systems can be just as passionate about what they do not believe

I know that you are published as well Bob
I am ashamed to admit I have missed quite a few masses, but I have had the honor to recite some of my poems at catholic charismatic prayer meetings and conferences
My publication has reached many prisons.

My aunt Agnes requested that I recite a poem I had written for her at a very large wake service in a large cathedral. My editor wrote an unusual poem from my Aunts point of view and that is published in her book Crowning Touches of Bereavement:. I can honestly say that inspiration that has passed through me has been read in convents churches prisons and rehabs. I am also very proud and pleased that I am tolerated on this site also

Well, I think people are slowly pushing the sticks in their anuses deeper and deeper until finally, we start tearing holes, and all hell ensues. Instead of slapping up our guards when a religion or cultural standpoint contrasts our own, we need to be accepting, respectful and understanding. Christians can wear their crosses, Jewish males can wear their yamikas, Persians can wear their Turbans...whatever. How is that offensive? It's not like wearing a T-shirt that says, "Fuck God. Christians, may you be eternally damned in the pits of hell fire." Compensation for our past has happened, but now we're over-compensating...like a guy with a little penis buying a huge truck. Equality does not mean taking away individuality, culture, religion, beliefs, philosophy. It means allowing people to do as they please without harming others. Now, someone could say, "Oh, but her Christian 'pride' in wearing a cross, offends me." --And that shi** happens, which is absolutely ridiculous. Then, I would say, "You need a reality check. Why don't you go talk to that person and ask them about their religion? You could learn something." You should not have to hide who you are to make other people secure in their own skin.

Now culture and skin color. It's interesting how a good amount of white people are so concerned with not being racist, and repeating the past, that they try to be overly nice to other ethnicities, especially black people. Isn't that racist? It's certainly not equal. And here's the other side. Plenty of black people are still trying to get back at white people for past generations. Just because my great, great grandfather may have been racist, just because he may have been a slave master--does not mean I am. I have met several people on this site, majorly hispanic, who automatically assume I am racist because I am white. Excuse me, who is racist? Come again?

Anyway, I'm rambling...I think we all need to chill out and start judging people by thier morals and actions, not their beliefs and appearances.

Neema: So basically, you think that forgiveness is inhuman, and the intensity of revenge determines our future? Wow. That's kind of sad, but maybe you're right. Realizing your mistakes and making changes are not always enough. Punishment serves. Right? Hmm...pride, pride, pride. Too much of it.

Alright, I agree that it would be lovely for all religions to pray together, but is that necessary? The praying would have to be silent, which limitates freedom of belief, because prayers of different religions are obviously different. Unless you are hoping for a singular religion comprised of all religions? That won't happen. But I do think it would be great if a Rabbi and a Priest could express their beliefs and share interesting facts, without preaching, trying to change the other's mind, disregarding, or attacking. That is a goal we should and could aim for.

As to whether patriotism is a form of racism or not, that's a hard question to answer. It depends on the intensity of patriotism. If you think that your country is a great place, maybe better than most other countries, that's not racist or any kind of 'ist' with the right attitude. If you think that other countries could prosper and benefit from yours, that's one thing. If you think that your country is better and in that sense, other countries suck and should just give up--that's a condescending attitude, and a stupid one at that. I'm not sure I would classify that as Racist however...Usually one country is not comprised of one race.

Let's look at Religion itself. Is any religion, any predominant religion, aimed to destroy humanity or serve a negative purpose? Most religions support peace. Order. Love. Faith. Hope. But it's when people pick up a patronizing persona. "My religion is better than yours, so you should probably be killed." Where is the harmony in that? If someone shares a difference in belief(s), that should not affect you in any way. Stop focusing on the differences, and focus on the similarities. Two people, of different beliefs, can both be good people with similar morals.

I question who has misread...I think you should look closer at your last post. You went to say that people always seek revenge, and then, hopefully, balance can occur. Sure, what you wrote sounded awful flowery, but the essence I got from this: "Everything in universe is balance and harmony; for that everything goes through the three stages of development: thesis, antithesis and synthesis." Was that you believe an antithesis must always occur, instead of realization and change. Is realization of one's wrongs the antithesis?

And perhaps I did misread, but I found it curious that you simply pointed out the obvious. I thought you were getting at something 'deeper.' It's amusing that you would call me cute condescendingly, when we're talking about respect.

"We don't really "learn" from our mistakes- or we must be very slow learners... coming up to around 200,000 years now. There is no single way to "fix" us, that is not the way it works. Humanity is not a science where things like time and temperature can be designated 'right' and 'wrong' values. But what we can do is strive to reach a global consciousness, aim for that unified awareness."

That's a great point, and apparently, very true. The individual can learn, but societies seem incapable. Christmas is lovely, as is Buddha, Chanukah, Churches...I'm reading "Last of the Amazons" right now, and it has a very interesting perspective on worshipping God. Is not the world God's church? Why spend money in building houses of worship, when nature is what is believed to be CREATED BY GOD. As humans are said to be. As all creatures and things are said to be. So if you believe in God's creation of all things, including this very world we live in, then why build man-made houses of worship instead of worshipping beneath the open sky, on the dirt, surrounded by trees and creatures?

Oh, unless...huge, beautiful churches are proving a point. "My religion is better than yours, because we have money, and we big build house to gather in. Admire or be jealous. We are a house of pride, we are."

^One of my many offtopic tangents...

I have learned that humility is powerful. Yet it is not that easy to wear it as my best garment. The closest I have personally come to generic spirituality besides a charismatic experience would be at an AA meeting. The problems imbalance causes society, must be recognized by the senior members of this site, because the contest winner points out that not conforming to a balance results in suffering. " Nobody's Child"

I cannot resist linking to an old Bob Dylan song in response to Bob's post on patriotism

http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/withgod.html

Gah, this is getting redundant.

We should be able to tolerate all practices that do not inhibit harm to others. Some might even suggest practices that do not inhibit harm to others or oneself, but I think self mutilation, discrimination, or forms of self-hatred are no one's responsibility except for that self, unless caused or related to others inflicting harm.

I repeat: Toleration ends when considering all physical, and most mental, harm. This is where a person has a right to step in and encourage amends.

We are like a group of elites staring down at a deep hole full of brawling animals, debating intensely what is transpiring before us.

I agree with Jane, we are all just stating the obvious, that tolerance is good, and intolerance is bad, and we need to learn this and spread it around.

Yeah. Wow. yeah.

I was making a point not aimed at you, Sherry, but at everyone who posts in debates like this and says nothing, even though they write things that seem to make sense, what they really do it just rinse and repeat what other people have said.

And then people discuss what they just mentioned, though it's copied from someone else, and what you get is individuals talking crap, boring obvious crap which is so far removed from the brilliance of the original post.

It's like a backslapping club. One person says it's white, and then the next person says well it's certainly the opposite of black...and then someone else says it's like black with all the dark taken out of it.

Yes, Shelley stated it first, but then everyone kept debating on the same exact terms, including Shelley...and I felt the need to repeat the repetition. Again. Hahaha, either way...give credit where credit is due. Meaning, not to me. Never to me.
Ciao amigitos.

Wait, what? Who the hell is Shelley? Well, whoever I'm talking about...You know who you are. I salute you!

I am sure all of us who are being criticized are grateful that the brilliant posters tolerate us

Oh, that Shelley. Shelley, the Shelley, Shelley the poet. Shelley.

Mary Blische Shelley, that one?

Try not to laugh so hard that your ass comes off, will you?

I was never intolerant of her. What are you even talking about? I'm just talking. Talking and making sense have absolutely nothing to do with eachother. Where are you getting these ideas? Then again, to be more precise, talking and stating the obvious are oft intertwined.

What? I need something to eat.

Oh, that one. Well, whatever. Quotes, quotes, quotes. Come up with your own.

Yes, sure. I'm not sure how I knew that, or even that I did. I've taken a fair share of Creative Writing classes, and years of English taught me a few things, if not more.

I do tolerate your qoutes. Seriously, where are you getting these ideas? What am I supposedly intolerant of? Gah.

"On Friendship

if you can count all your true friends on one hand, you are truly blessed, if you need two hands, you're lying to yourself.

Bob Shank-Nov. 6th, 2006"

^ You do realize that is not your own quote? My dad has been telling me that since I was a wee one.

It is strange that some of us feel the urge to quote the masters on poems and quotes

So far I have been criticized for linking to my own work then criticized for linking to the masters.

Has it been stated that we cannot please everyone, or is that as obvious as the fact that the designer of this tolerant site meant for quotes to be shared?

I tend to quote myself much more than others, as well. We're on this site to create quotes, not to steal them and make them our own. Okay, that's a bit dramatic, but hey.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time" I believe Abraham Lincoln said that

Do you know what a parody is?

If I were challenged to do a parody on that quote on a real literary site by real authors do you think they are asking me to steal?

You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not please all of the people all of the time

I said that just now

My dad said those exact words, as I'm assuming his dad did before him. If it's not published, perhaps the male figures in the Fitzsimmons family think much as the Shanks do. Or the quote isn't submitted online yet. OR, the quote is anonymous, making it harder to find? Who knows...

I asked my dad earlier today, "Dad, what's one of your favorite quotes about friendship?" The one he said, as I suspected, went like this:

"If you can count all of your friends on one hand, (he held up his hand) you're very lucky, but if it takes two hands, you're fooling yourself. (He said the last bit with raised eyebrows and a stern look)." Haha. The quote is essentially the same, and he says it slightly different each time, the words lucky and blessed being interchangable as well as fooling and lying to.

So there you have it.

Holy flying crap balls... I leave here and its got 4 posts ... I come back and there is 57 posts?! What the...?

I dont have time to read them all now. Just bits and pieces (whilst humming the theme tune to Different Strokes to myself).

Bob - cant believe you stole your quote off Jane's dad!! Ummmaaaa! My dad comes up with lots of wierd useless quotes - his favourite one when leaving the house for work was "If I dont see you through the week... I'll see you through the window!" haha. Seems funnier now that Im slowly growing less and less mature.

His other one - he'd start a story with "When I was a little girl..." and once my cousin got so upset he asked his mum at what age he was going to turn into a girl. haha.

Geez Kevin - what crawled up your ass and died lately? Stiiiinky! Peew! :) hehe.

Sorry - just kidding.

xx

Percy Bysshe Shelley :D
I love her poem Silver................

Tis not my fault... Its Kevin's fault for not rescuing you in that jail in Italy, where you came up with that quote - probably because it was scribbled on the wall by Jane's father who had been arrested for selling monkey poo as fertiliser the previous week.

Too true. The quote is essentially the same, and my dad is 58 (maybe older, I kinda forget). He's an old fart. You stole it. Oh well...Keep believing in yourself. Yes, Bob, that's it.

Here are some handy dandy quotes:

Anon: "Religious tolerance is not religious indifference. It consists of valuing the right of another person to hold beliefs that you know absolutely to be wrong."
Anon: "Religious tolerance means to refrain from discriminating against others who follow a different religious path. Tolerance is more difficult to maintain when you know that your religion is right and their religion is wrong."
Bumper sticker: "Truth, not tolerance." Published by Harbor House Gifts of Fullerton CA. The bumper sticker also shows a clenched fist on the left side and a cross on the right.
Paul Copan: "Contrary to popular definitions, true tolerance means 'putting up with error' - not 'being accepting of all views' It is because real differences exist between people that tolerance becomes necessary and virtuous." "True for You, But not for Me"
Robert Fleishmann: "When it comes to fundamentally wrong behavior (called "sin" by the Word of God), there is no tolerance. Wrong is wrong!,"
Hagar: "My son, always respect and honor the other fellow's point of view. Unless it's different from yours, of course." From his comic strip on 1999-MAR-3.
Arthur J. Kropp, former U.S. Surgeon General: "The American ideal is not that we all agree with each other, or even like each other, every minute of the day. It is rather that we will respect each other's rights, especially the right to be different..."
David Odell-Scott, associate professor of philosophy at Kent State University. "To simply be tolerant doesn't feel too good. People should have a deep sense of appreciation of people different from them."

"Arthur J. Kropp, former U.S. Surgeon General: "The American ideal is not that we all agree with each other, or even like each other, every minute of the day. It is rather that we will respect each other's rights, especially the right to be different...""

^ Hey... that dude stole MY quote! :) Jk. But thats what I was trying to say - we dont have to agree with them we dont have to take on their beliefs but we let them be them and believe in what they want without trying to change it to mirror our own beliefs.

Yes, thanks for changing a few words around and essentially repeating exactly what the quote...quoted? No, stated.

Much appreciated.

Cow.

Turkey.

Thats because ur a baboon