Is god an excuse????

I think the who god thing is really fake! The church people I think are just using the belief for money. I live next door to a church and I know they have millions in the bank and they don't help out in the society at all. (Besides a Sunday dinner in December) Like the whole 'Vigin Mary'. Obviously she didn't want people to know she had sex, and was an unwed mother. People just need something to believe in to overcome there pain and fears.

See! by that last post is what i'm talking about. not all religons are the same. and by categorizing all churches with the one next door that sounds like stereotyping to me

Lyn Im sorry to say but have you ever asked what this church next door to you DOES with their millions of dollars? Have you ever seen them do a food drop, or help some new family to the area that cant afford their own house or to send their kids to school because of the cost of uniforms? Not all church do-gooders are out on the streets yelling their good deeds thru their loud speakers.

Im sorry to say - everyone seems to be doing a bit of pre-judging in this thread and there doesn't seem to be a lot of fact going around at all. Yes this is based on opinions - and everyone claims to have been on both sides, thus clearly they know ALL... but honestly - why do we feel the need to change people's minds on matters such as this?

I wouldn't have to say that if it were a discussion where everyone were respecting each other's opinions and needs and beliefs, but clearly you all want to fight it out for the badge of the most accurate or clever come back. Religion is never going to be agreed on. So lets just agree to disagree and have a bit of respect for people and which side they choose to lay their boots.

^^ true that

Lynn, your view on the church is pretty skewed....thats only one church out of the millions in our nation and I assure you, every church in this nation is nowhere near like that.

I agree with mr.history....why is when y'all get to oppose christianity, you gang up on those who have the beliefs and basically try your best to rip us apart?
(most of you.)

Eh, Bob's keepin 'em in line.
Church involves God, yes. But I will admit.. Church and God are not excuses. They have saved a lot of lives and changed so many people. But I believe it is all in the mind. For those people who say.... "this is all God's fault", I believe that then.... that lacks belief and is being used as an excuse to not own up to their own actions.
Whereas, churches.. are not excuses and they only help you find yourself even more. People who find their sanctuary inside of that, are true believers.
Whether God be real or not, it's you who decides whether he is an excuse in your life or a positive factor.

Is God an Excuse?

If I look at today's world and see how the current religious institutions. I would say "Yes"...God is an excuse.

I believe that religion may be a peaceful religion in theory, but when applied in reality, it can be used to socially control, racially ostracise and destroy one society if allowed a chance.

My words may be extreme, but history can attest to my words alone: The Holocaust, The crusades, Ireland's Protestant-Catholic civil war.

It can be said that God can be used as an excuse to trample cultures and convert them to the mainstream.

God is an excuse! Period!

I dont think God is an excuse for our lives, but it can be taken that way. If we are to think of God and what God says, through scripture, then he says (albiet abridged): 'i created you guys to have a relationship with me, and told you whats best for you, I only wanted whats best for you and then gave you free choice to do whatever you wanted.'

That way round, God comes first, so in this creator role he can't be an excuse, cos anyone who believes in him, believes there is a real, ordained, purpose to life

Now, some people use God as an excuse... or religion as an excuse for stuff... but our existance, or making sense of the world isn't really one of them, cos the idea of God in existance involves alot of responsiblity - so its too heavy a burden to be an excuse.

If you don't believe that (at least to orthodox branches of whatever faith) you fall into hypocracy, and theolgically, again.. its alot to take as an excuse.

now, some people may be culturaly religious... and may use good as a one size fits all answer to why we are here, without looking at it in depth.. if that works for them fine.. but i do see how that can be seen as an excuse, cos its not thouroughly thought out.

(Dear God, this is becoming so long i'm boring myself) but... in response to all the 'read some philosophy' posts, i think thats real unfair, because Philosophy is still as divided as anything on the issue... same as all studies really... just depends which side of the fence you wanna look at it from.

I believe in God because i think when EVERYTHING is taken into consideration it is a very positive belief to hold... and therefore, because i feel its reasones... its not an excuse, its a complete theology, that makes sense... not an excuse.

Anyway, i'll stop there.. if you read it all , i owe you a pound... and i'll turn this into a limericks thread, which i'll invite anyone to continue...

'there once was man named enis'

God's the reason we're here not an excuse for our existence...but people like to blame God for things so he becomes an excuse unjustly.

David (aka Atticus Maximus) I quit alcohol, drugs, wickedness, and my hatred of the world and everyone on it without converting to a religion. The way I see it, being a good person and a moral person has nothing to do with religion. Religion to me is just a system that was used to bind people together, give them hope and make them easier to control (saying you are divine or have divine influence. Not pointing out Christianity specifically here, but all religions). What makes a good and moral person is based upon one realising that there are things and people worth dying for. Realising that life isn't about oneself. But those that one loves.

Religion can provide that yes, but people can also take it much too far. The Crusades, Inquisition, Salem Witch Hunts, Holocaust (which was partially based on religion but mainly race), the Armenian Genocide, and a million other acts of violence and cruelty (ranging to petty to monstrous). Like I said before, not just Christianity. But every other religion.

It does seem that everyone must get stoned. I do not expect the shallow to understand how many ways that line may be taken. When my Lord, walks this earth, in the hearts of the faithful, I notice there are still many religious authorities that would like to stone Him, but most settle for a pagan crucifixion. General Patton was accused of saying that it takes a real asshole to die for his country. It seems that the world will always be filled with users, abusers accusers, and excusers. We may reject the redemption of love, or we may yet place our sins on Christ and crucify the Holy Trinity. The divine nature will always survive.

...genocide in Rwanda, the almost jewish genocide in persia, Terrorism....I'm just adding on to Alex's list here...
Religion isn't all bad though.
if it wasn't for religion this country wouldn't exist...there wouldn't be any democracy and we'd be sitting here in Brittan talking with english accents about how horrible the king/queen is....or w/e.

"My words may be extreme, but history can attest to my words alone: The Holocaust, The crusades, Ireland's Protestant-Catholic civil war. "

1. the holocaust, nazis weren't christians, and it was the catholic church that decided to keep silent that was one of the big proponents of it going on so long, but not baptists

2. the crusades were done by catholics not baptist

3. ireland's civil war was as much to do with geography as church wise

to emphasize the last post i'd like to say that there would be a country in america but we'd all be speaking french and spanish instead of english

But also to add on the the other religions thing that was stated, when the muslims were invading the balkans during the middle ages they forcefully conscripted christians into their army as foot soldiers called janisarries, if the christian didn't turn muslim then he'd die. and the janisarries were thrown into the front lines.
muslim and hindu religious wars in india
the persecution of the bhuddists in japan

no one's hands are clean, why don't you share in the madness that is this world instead of sitting in your chairs condoning what has already happened, acting like some judge. put the past behind you or it will swallow you whole with hypocrissy, loathing, and malice

I'm praying to God that this forum post gets closed. Jesus.

^^

Lol...Well maybe God, will or will not answer to your plight.

Maybe when this forum does not close, you'll lose faith in God, and have a disbelief in him.

Lol...

I really don't think there is a god,,,i mean do you see him anywhere? Besides how caome there is so much crap in the world? What kind of god would allow that?

Thats typical atheism my friend (no offense to your beliefs)
God's not responsible for the bad things that happen here.
that would be Satan, people often forget about him and quickly go to pointing their fingers towards God (stupid atheists, kidding)
and
if you were to see God physically, than just his presence and his pure awesomeness would kill you (no lie, thats why you only get to see him after you die.)
but
you can see him in another way; through others.

Well goodness gracious. I've learned more than I'd like to from this post. A heck of a lot more.

Anyway.
To many people God is an excuse because he does not exist, in their eyes. But, others, such as myself, God exists not as an excuse, but as a way of life.

One person asked where God came from.
There's many questions and answers that cannot and will not be confirmed until you're in heaven.

In a way I don't understand how people can't believe in God, but at the same time I know people don't understand why I do believe in God. It's as if there are so many choices in this world you don't know which one is right until you find it. Just as love is, when you fall in love.. You don't know if that's love until it's right. You feel it many times, you believe it with all of your heart, and then you find the right person, and that person is.. yours. Meant to be. You know? I've believed many things in my life, but I've done a complete 360. I began my life believing in God, but I .. well I expiermented, quite a bit. With different religions, and some I believed for quite awhile. But, all in all, Christianity is what I believe.

I understand though, others believe other things.
But, in a way I don't see why people think it's an excuse or 'crutch'. Because, it's a belief of HOW we were created not WHY. I dont believe I was created for any reason other than to live my life. My life is based on God, though. But, he's not an excuse.

Plus, once you read the bible it's pratically common sense just adding a God who created you and the world. Plus, a place to go after you die.
Do not kill.
Do not lie.
EVERYONE KNOWS NOT TO.
Those who don't are in a heck of a mess, correct?

"if it wasn't for religion this country wouldn't exist...there wouldn't be any democracy and we'd be sitting here in Brittan talking with english accents about how horrible the king/queen is....or w/e."

This country (America) would exist. People didn't just come here for religious freedom. Most came for economic reasons. Also none of us would be here. My parents met each other in America, your parents met each other in America and so on so forth. Without their emigration they could possibly be in two completely different nations meaning they would never meet. Thus no you.

"1. the holocaust, nazis weren't christians, and it was the catholic church that decided to keep silent that was one of the big proponents of it going on so long, but not baptists"

The Nazis were too Christian. Most were so anti-Jewish (anti-Semetic) due to their religion. They saw Jews as the killer of the Christ. Now for a little Hitler quotes:

'The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were. … I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.' 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

'I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.' 1941 Adolph Hitler to General Gerhard Engel

Not Christian eh? Christians have long been anti-Semetic. During the Bubonic Plague people of all European nations (Christian peoples) thought that it was Jews poisoning their wells. Thusly they lynched them when they found them.

"2. the crusades were done by catholics not baptist"

At the time were the Baptists not Catholic? The Baptist sect appeared after the Crusades. So stop blaming Catholics and learn some self-accountability for your religious sect.

"But also to add on the the other religions thing that was stated, when the muslims were invading the balkans during the middle ages they forcefully conscripted christians into their army as foot soldiers called janisarries, if the christian didn't turn muslim then he'd die. and the janisarries were thrown into the front lines.
muslim and hindu religious wars in india
the persecution of the bhuddists in japan"

No one said that everyone but Christians were clean handed.

"if you were to see God physically, than just his presence and his pure awesomeness would kill you (no lie, thats why you only get to see him after you die.)
but
you can see him in another way; through others."

I'm sure that it wouldn't kill me. Every religion of thousands of years (Ancient Greek paganism for example) has claimed the reason you cannot see gods is because it'd kill you. Give me some documented proof of it.

"One person asked where God came from.
There's many questions and answers that cannot and will not be confirmed until you're in heaven."

Why when we get to Heaven? Is that knowledge going to kill us too? I'm pretty sure if there was a viable creation myth for God then more people would accept religion. So in the end keeping if from people is just damning skeptics.

"Plus, once you read the bible it's pratically common sense just adding a God who created you and the world. Plus, a place to go after you die."

Nope, doesn't really make any sense. The Bible contradicts itself so much it makes even less sense after reading it. It seems more like a patchwork of stories and morals than anything else.

Dude, half of that was completely disrespectful.
(and not because your disagreement.)
except for when you told me off, that was just repetition, someone already argued the same point against me.

I think Atticus knows a little more about history than you.

The nazi's were definitely catholic, and I think thats different than christianity (different beliefs.)

...and the only reason the Bible contradicts itself is because one side is from a Jewish perspective and the other is Not.
I think a lot of people that try to make the case that the Bible is self-contradicting forget this.

I dare you to tell me where theres contradiction in the Bible without crossing testaments, and give me a perfectly unbiased explanation.
(that may be too specific.)

"I'm sure that it wouldn't kill me. Every religion of thousands of years (Ancient Greek paganism for example) has claimed the reason you cannot see gods is because it'd kill you. Give me some documented proof of it. "

in old the old hebrew times they had this thing called the tabernacle, you might of heard about it.

it was a place where you made sacrifices to God for forgiveness.
within this place there was a room called the "Holy of Holies" because thats where God's presence was the most prevalent...only the priests (or whatever they were called, idk a lot about Jewish history.) could go in there and often they'd DIE because of God's Holiness so every time they'd enter they had to tie a rope to them selves so they could be pulled out.

God manifested himself into human form, and wrestled Jacob. dislocated his hip, because he so amazing.

Okay, if you've read the bible AND understand it you will notice that it does NOT contradict itself. Some of the changes from the old testament and the new testament are seriously different. But, that is because the coming of Christ.

I don't see why you're making such a huge deal in trying to prove us wrong. Or make it seem as if we are bad people or something.

People make mistakes, darling. Not all christians are perfect. Many mistake the right thing for the wrong thing. And, do things such as you stated. But, you must realize not all christians are like that.

I don't quite get your point either. What's the point in trying to prove OUR BELIEFS wrong? Honestly. I'm not trying to prove you or anyone wrong. it doesn't seem as if a song writer is either. Though, at times I wonder if he/she is.. Overall I don't think she/he is doing anything but defending her beliefs against yours. Though, she/he has no reason whatsoever to because they are hers and it doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks.

What exactly are you trying to point out to me? That there is no God? I will never believe that, darling.
That christians are fake and no good? That, I shall never believe either. Every christian I have ever met is here to help the world become a better place. But, I believe and know there are different ones out there.
But, please enlighten me on what you're proving or asking.

Therefore, I can know and understand what you are meaning to say/ask.

"The Bible contradicts itself so much it makes even less sense after reading it. It seems more like a patchwork of stories and morals than anything else."

what you don't understand is that some people don't believe in a god (or god) just because of the bible, as though that clarifies his existence. god was written by PEOPLE thousands of years ago, not god, nor does he try to claim he wrote it. and why intervene? if people are stupid enough to read it a million times pointing out the contradictions in every sentence, they shouldn't even bother trying to justify their side of the story. the bible is made up, it's up to you to decide if you think god is or not, but belief is a thing of freedom, so whether you do or not, you should never try and impose yours on somebody else. mere debating is harmless; but if you bring your own personal religion or athiesim into it, it gets ugly because you're making a moccery of your original argument. you can't base an argument on personal faith or religious opinion or it'd just be bias.

"it was a place where you made sacrifices to God for forgiveness.
within this place there was a room called the "Holy of Holies" because thats where God's presence was the most prevalent...only the priests (or whatever they were called, idk a lot about Jewish history.) could go in there and often they'd DIE because of God's Holiness so every time they'd enter they had to tie a rope to them selves so they could be pulled out.

God manifested himself into human form, and wrestled Jacob. dislocated his hip, because he so amazing."

You need some documentation that is unbiased. The Bible and Torah are obviously going to talk about God's awesomeness. Besides I am sure I could wrestle Jacob and dislocate his hip. He was a hundred or so at the time if I remember. So it's far more dangerous to look at awesomeness than to touch it? Jacob didn't die while wrestling the 'All-Mighty' yet people died in a room?

"don't see why you're making such a huge deal in trying to prove us wrong. Or make it seem as if we are bad people or something."

Because you kind folks are trying to prove me wrong. We could simply both agree not to come back to this thread and forget about this.

"People make mistakes, darling. Not all christians are perfect."

None are. Christ is supposed to be the only 'perfect' being.

"What exactly are you trying to point out to me? That there is no God? I will never believe that, darling.
That christians are fake and no good? That, I shall never believe either. Every christian I have ever met is here to help the world become a better place. But, I believe and know there are different ones out there.
But, please enlighten me on what you're proving or asking."

My main argument is that Christians are not always here to make the world a better place. That they are not always good people. That's it. I know you get it. You've said it. I'm trying to point that out to Songwriter. And show her that some Christians (yes, Songwriter even Baptists) can be bad people. Or maybe I should just forget about it. Someone who does not like too accept blame, even when they are blameless, are never going to.

BangBand: Yes you're quite right about the bias part. But you cannot have a religious argument with out bringing religion into it. Otherwise you have no clear stand.

The Bible does contradict itself! I think people made this dude up cause they wanted somehting to believe in...to bow down and worship...and so on. I don't get why every body seems to want an idol or whatever. and the bible was written by people right...god didn't write it. Its all stories people!

Lol.
Okay, Alex.
Sorry. :|
It was late and I was confused, big time.

Okay, I want you to know [[the poster right above me]] that I understand where you are coming from. People did write it. But, in christianity we believe in the Holy Spirit, which grants each person gifts. Some have the gifts of prophecy, which is what the bible is based on. Not what it writes about, but that'st he gift that was given to the writers. When you know your gift and the religion well you begin to use your gift more often, but only using it while depending the Holy Spirit to guide you. [[God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are the same thing ;; hence : 3 in 1. ]] So, you're being guided through your expierence/gift by the Holy Spirit, as I stated. Which means the Holy Spirit [[God]] told those people what to write.

Now, I understand you don't believe it, and that's what you chose to do. But, I'm letting you know why the people who do believe it believe and understand what these people are writing about.

And, a song writer. Alex is right about how not all christians are here to bring peace and such. That's our job, what we should do. But, many people, some not even realizing it, do the exact opposite. The create conflict and horrible wars due to religious beliefs. So, yeah. But, know I'm not saying I believe his beliefs, Lol. Just that I agree with that one statment. And, a few others he's made as well.

And, he's correct on some of his history, what I read that I had been informed of before is RIGHT. But, a few points he had made I was unaware of and I'm not sure if they are correct.

AGAIN. i am with lucy. you are deep, girl.

Ok here, I am going to settle this right here and now
(maybe)

there is one main difference between a good athiest and a good christian (when it comes to discussion, arguments and other types of quarrels.)

Atheists:
set out to prove that God is in fact not real, according to logic and reality there is no God. in any religion.
the Bible's just another book.
God's just an idea.
(note: these are just observations I've made from athiests. i have no intentions of stereotyping, slandering or bashing this lifestyle/point of view.)

Christians:
(this may shock you, read it, pay attention and try to understand it. it's not BS, I swear.)
A christian's goal is not to prove that God exists. A christian is SUPPOSED try and help people. according to the Bible (what they believe in) God offers aid to all in need of it, no matter who they are, and as christians they're supposed to spread that message to everyone in hope that they might be able to actually lift someone up.
Love
and
Compassion
...is a christian's first duty,
not defense and counter-arguments.

(I tried to be as unbiased as possible. Don't get mad at me if I portrayed you wrongly, Atheists.)

Oh excuse me then. I am a good atheist so I'll go spend all day trying to disprove the nucleas of someone elses beliefs (religion). While I'm at it, since I'm not Christian, I'm NOT going to go help anybody. Only Christians do that.

Hmm... one tiny problem. I leave other people's religion alone unless I feel like they're attacking my constitutional belief to believe what I want. And I guess 'helping people' just isn't apart of donating every spare dollar and then some to HELP wounded veterans and the widows of deceased veterans. I guess they don't count as people then.

If Christians are 'supposed to spread that message to everyone' then isn't that basically trying to 'prove that God exists'. You cannot spread the Christian message (converting people) and say you don't try to 'prove that God exists'.

I've given up on religious debates, i'll stick with history myself

Did I anger you Alex?

seriously, I'm sorry.
I told everyone that it was based off observations I've been making.
can't blame me.

I never said that that only christians help people.
read more carefully.
I said when it came to discussion arguments and other quarrels.

I don't think you understand the christian side very well, honestly.
did you read it?
I said that all of that was what a christian was SUPPOSED to be doing. I said that love & compassion comes first.
and we're not perfect, give us a freaking break.
whats so hard to understand?

...so since I upset someone already, let me apologize, once more.
sorry.

I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little hurt.

I actually tried to be unbiased.
honest.

God is real and he made us all

Someone needs to request to have this locked.
This is getting ridiculous.

It's never going to stop you know? i wish it would though. nonbelievers in God will push believers in God, believers will push nobelievers back, it's all a vicious cycle

the essence of the matter is whether you believe or whether you need facts. the person who needs facts can't stand seeing someone so-called "walking blindly" and the believer will not have his faith tread upon.

in the end it's all about faith and numbers

Read all the previous religious wars on this forum and then try and disagree, one person is not satisfied the other person thinks as they do

It's funny...

What was meant to be a intellectual debate on theology, became nothing more than "God does or doesn't exist" tug of war.

Please spare me and try to back up some of your claims with research or at least some kind of study. Rather than give old outdated ideaologies.

I still feel bad...

As usual noir you are behind the curve, no one is even talking about what you brought up and even then you just proved what i have been saying so i thank you for unwittingly agreeing with me