A way of life...

There have been many religious debates on this website. Most of them end up in a rather frustrating stalemate of logic Vs faith.

I do not wish to discuss the reality of God but what I would like to discuss is faith itself.

A friend of mine used to work with people who had drug addictions, usually Heroin, which is one of the worst. He learned that it was almost impossible to get someone to just stop taking drugs altogether and so he started up an unofficial program of getting people off Heroin and onto softer drugs, and then softer still and then just things like marajuana.

I do not mean to associate religious faith with the negativity of drug abuse, but the issue always comes up of why people believe in things when there doesn't seem to be any proof and non believers try to convince them that their beliefs are wrong and they should just drop them.

Looking at faith in the same way as an addiction [if you'll forgive the comparison] what would you all say you would need to replace faith with in order to give it up or change it? [you don't need to reply if you would never change your faith...rock on to you...]

If you believe in some God, what would you have to be given to make you change your mind, and if you know what that something is, where you given it when you first chose to believe?

Jump in people...and play nice...

I can't really answer that question on a personal level because I'm still very confused when it comes to religion, but I do think that
even for the most religious people when something horrible happens, like a child dying for instance, they begin to loose faith in God. And question, why a God would allow humans to suffer so much? Why would God want a innocent child to die? Thus leading them to loose faith.

I think addiction can be a good comparison when it comes to religion, though I am sure some would indeed be offended Kevin lol Some people are consumed by it and even if they take it to a bad place, they don't see it because they need it.

The only thing I hold a firm belief about, is that we are all connected. I can't say God does or does not exist, but I know half of what is done in his name and a lot of what is represented in the church does not strengthen my need to discover it on that road.

I would have to be given proof that the God that I believe in does not really exist and that whatever I was replacing it with would benefit my life and be a positive influence on the people around me.I believe that we are all connected and that we have a responsibility to each other. I believe in God and I believe that I have in my life seen proof that he exists ,I however have my doubts about organized religion ,and that it in fact represents what God expects, It to me seems full of hypocracy.I believe if we love our neighbor as we love ourselves ,the rest will follow.

Thats a rather lovely description of faith Illuminatix, but it doesn't address my questions at all.

I only say this because I don't want this discussion to turn into a debate about God or no God, or even the existence of God and your post was heading that way. I don't mean to sound rude, but you know as well as I how the other religious debates have turned out.

I'd love to hear your answers to my questions if you have the time.

I think what Bob here was trying to say is that Kevin here intentionally took the idea of addiction versus faith to pose a question that he knows the answer to but does not want to admit he knows the answer to, however from others he is looking for that specific answer but only that answer in which he is burying in his subconcious, and any other answers is therefore disregarded. but at the same time Bob has no ill will towards Kevin an wishes him a good holiday, but he is sticking to his beliefs regardless of the question, because faith is the only thing he has.

is that what you were trying to say Bob?

"Looking at faith in the same way as an addiction [if you'll forgive the comparison] what would you all say you would need to replace faith with in order to give it up or change it?"
I will forgive the comparison because faith is viewed by many as unhealthy In my opinion if anyone believes that all faith is indeed unhealthy the burden of proof is on them.

Addiction can in many cases be viewed as unhealthy, and anything unhealthy may be seen as disease, or lack of ease.

All food is not bad, all drugs are not bad, and all habits are not bad.

I have not seen much in life that cannot be abused

Although I have done it many times, it is not logical to abuse drugs, or faith.

The day I am healed by addiction I will pursue it as my higher power.

" believe in mankind...now imagine all my disappointments throughout life and yet I still believe that they will one day wake up and rectify what they have so far screwed up for eons....."

^put so perfectly Bob....oh and by the way...have you taken that stand-up routine on the road yet?

I believe man has been given the concept of God from the beginning of time when he gazed to the heavens and realized that there is something more glorious and powerful than we as humans could ever aspire to!.................organized religion has twisted faith to suit their needs and exert control........I don't believe religion has anything to do with faith or spirituality.........growing up as a Southern Baptist I saw religion as a means for men to exert control over women in often subtle ways....don't cut your hair, don't wear pants, don't dance....etc. etc......so having said that.....I am very spiritual, not religious.....we are all members of the family of man....all connected....no one religion over another....what my brother chooses to worship is his business....if it makes him a better person how can it be bad....in order for me to change my mind....God himself would need to tell me differently....

I think it's ok for the creator of a thread to expect, at least to some degree that people will stay on topic and if they don't want to, then being reminded should be ok. I know the Mods do alot of reminding to people when they veer off topic.

I do not ask questions to which I already know the answers as some kind of twisted game. Of course I have my own answer to this particular question, based on my beliefs, that much is obvious, but I wanted to know what others thought about what it would take for them to change deeply held beliefs, thats all.

Bob suggested that I have a habit of not accepting answers to my questions that I don't find to be satisfactory, and I know why he thinks that. In this instance however his is being unfair, because I asked a specific question, which is my right and specifically said at the outset, honestly, that I didn't want this to turn into a treatise on why people believe in God or not. If anyone thinks my being specific about a question in such a large and potentially confusing topic is unfair, then don't post a reply.

I only wanted to know what they thought could change their minds, and I wasn't meaning what they thought I, personally could offer them, which of course is ridiculous.

If someone says what they think could or could not change their minds about their faith and then I tell them that are wrong for their ideas after having asked for them, then sure, I would be in the wrong and Bob would be entitled to call me on it.

Until then, I am in the right to expect people to stay on topic and I expect the mods to back that up as they would in any other thread.

^point taken Kev...although I believe my answer was on topic....about what my faith is....where it was given and what it would take to change my beliefs....etc. etc......

Thanks for responding Debs, you were indeed on topic and thats a powerful viewpoint, that God himself would have to tell you different for you to believe in something else.

It's kinda funny as well though you know, like I can't even imagine a God, were one to exist who'd tell his believers to believe in something else! Do you get what I'm saying? It sounds like you are saying that you wouldn't believe in something else unless your present belief made you...do I have that right?

I wouldn't believe in something else unless something were to prove to me without a doubt that what I believe is wrong....

I understand, and why should you? why should anyone abandon part of themselves unless there is a very good reason too.

Which is the whole point of this thread, hopefully.

I would only ever change my beliefs if they either stopped serving me in a good way or someone made me aware of beliefs that were more accurate and rewarding.

I think the heart of the matter is, with some beliefs, if my own spiritual history is anything to go by, it's very hard for new information and ways of thinking to penetrate the walls of faith if they are based on different ideologies.

So, to bring a scientific person round to a more mystical viewpoint is tough work, and visa versa.

It happens though, which is why I think this thread could be very interesting, particularly is some people who have completely changed their minds can say what shifted them.

Not necessarily pertaining to God, but my beliefs of life in general, for the most part they are ever changing and evolving as I grow and experience. There are only a few absolutes which I pray will never change.

I just want to say once more that I am not suggesting anything I could ever say would change any of your minds. Two people have thought I meant that and I don't, which is kinda the point of this thread.

I know that no argument or line of reasoning could change a person away from a strong belief, not me or any of you most likely. But people do change sometimes and I am interested in what makes them alter such deep convictions.

My guess is that it's either powerful events, such as a death or some other experience which they cannot fathom which leads to them to latch on to a related belief system in order to rationalize it.

An example of this would be a person seeing what they believe to be a ghost then becoming a spiritualist. They get a framework from their local spiritualist church to deal with the experience in the same way a person gets a reference point and set of ideas to deal with death from most organised religions.

Nicko's point about what blind faith is interesting as well, because for someone to say that nothing could ever change their beliefs is pretty arrogant, considerig that most free thinking adults adopted their belief system from somewhere to replace a gaping hole or another belief! remarkable eh? I think being in a war, or being fatally ill might sharpen up most peoples beliefs...

Can I just say, for the record, that I only posted this thread out of a general interest, and not as Illuminatix suggested because I NEED the answers..I have my own rather splendid worldview which is broader than most and not as dense and unspiritual as he may think....and seeing as I've never described it in detail I wonder how he came up with that?.....maybe he is a Jedi.

Also, we needed new topics to get us moving again after the break and I thought this could be a moderately interesting one.

That is all you crazy cats....

Fair points Britt.

But I imagine that unless you were raised in your present faith, then you actively chose it as an adult and I wonder what made you choose.

If not, I'm interested in the sorts of experiences you think might make you rethink your faith, because so many debates have taken place in here with people trying to convince their opposing group of this fact and that piece of evidence, and of course no one is converted from or too any belief system because of it.

So I'm interested in what does change people over to a faith. And when I say faith I mean anything, faith in Science, God, runestones..whatever.

Really Kevin...

I would think that you of all people would come up with a better example that the Alcholic Anonymous, as a way to illustrate the meaning of faith.

I think when looking at faith, more specifically my family's and mine, they tend to see it as a security blanket or a nostalgic tool to connect with their own past.

Same case goes for my grandmother, who is ostracised from the family because she believes in the old gods (Isis, Ra, Amon), rather than believe in the god of the Arabs...who invaded her lands.

As for me, I would say the same, I see it as a security blanket, and the most logical in its teachings.

Is there proof to what I believe or what my family believes, well...I could ask the same questions. But I think the real reason we keep the faith, and we are very stubborn for it. Is because we are insecure in the validity of our faith. Why else try to convince those who are happy and content in what they believe is true.

I think like life, there are many answers to your questions, a sea of truths and half truths. Your job is to sift it....And see which is the best truth for you...Lol!

Poetic...No!?

Your family's religious beliefs are an endless source in wonder for me Noir.

Getting back to the point though darling, what do you think would change you away or towards a belief system?

That is the question...like chesney hawkes...the one and only.

Darling...? well i see your charm is growing...its great to see you in that way. no sarcasm intended... you really have changed in a good way...lol as for changing my beliefs...im sufi while my family is sunni..so what does that say? :)

Well Kevin, I believe in God and I think that people shouldn't base everything on science and fact. Sometimes they just have to see what is not there to be seen with their eyes. Thats why its called faith. I dont see how humans can come from a big bang theory and I dont see how anyone can believe that we're all just here by accident and no one created us.

Really...never knew my humble words had charmed you...lol. to answer your question... if we look at history, it would attest to my words...insecurities gives birth to false pride which gives birth to prejuidice...

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

Where is the Mod squad keeping all you insolent children on topic when you need them too!

Im not a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but hot damn, the amount of off topic posts that have gone unchecked despite my repeated requests is rather alarming.

But rock and roll...my next thread is going to be called...

"Which is better, red smarties or blue ones"

I'm sure there will be more interest and focus in that blinder of a debate.

You geeks.

: )

People will forever say that certain religions are gender-abusing but we must look closely at how traditions are taught...perversations accepted under the banner of religion will forever be taught as good...blind faith and bad men make a deadly brew

There is a marked difference Ddavid, between biological processes and evolutionary sequences having a predictable order and outcome, and someone being involved in an accident.

I've heard this theory before, most notably from Taoist's who believe that accidents are the universes spiritual way of telling you to slow down and pay attention. Of course only people who live through accidents believe that, those that die, well the universe clearly thought they wouldn't get the message subtle like.

I don't buy it. When there is process without choice, or conscious choice, as in the early stages of live on earth, then that is fine, call it manifest destiny or whatever. However, when humans make choices and good or bad things happen, that is just cause and effect and not some message. Though of course smart people learn from every experience.

I think believing in fate is dangerous, it leeches responsibility from people and opens the way for apathy and hands to the sky choice making.

But alas, I am off topic in my own thread! How glorious!

I think it's rather easy to completely change a persons beliefs. This is how cults work, and you better believe that being smart or self aware doesn't really immunize you from the techniques used.

I knew this guy, father of a girl I dated a few years back....really smart cookie, had a stupidly high IQ and one of the few people I've never beaten at chess [these perhaps aren't the best indicators of how intelligent he was...take my word for it..he was savvy]....

Anyhoo, he had a hard time of things splitting up from his wife and some Jehovahs witnesses invited him to come to a retreat type trip for a weekend. They took him away, and bear in mind beforehand he was a complete athiest, believed in science and logic and all that jazz.

When he came back he was totally converted and his opinons on many things I'd shared with him, personal spiritual things and weird mystical experiences I was having [at the time] suddenly became satanic etc.

If you take someone out of their comfort zone, away from their environment, confuse them, tire them out, lovebomb them when they are feeling low....you'd be surprised what you can sneak into their heads.

research "cult techniques" on google is you are interested...lots of good websites....

Ok. I'm going to attempt to address the question, finally. Let's see....

First off, to know what it would take for me to change my beliefs, I'd have to know what I believe in. With this question, I'm assuming that you don't mean things like "I believe that Minneapolis is the capital of Minnesota" or "I believe that caterpillars eat beetles." Those are statements of conceptions, perhaps, but one doesn't necessarily "believe in" facts. Facts are true or false, and simply some solid evidence should be enough to enlighten, and therefore keep or change a "belief."

However, I think the question you're addressing isn't really meant for those kinds of questions (though you could argue that we should be able to empirically prove or disprove God, etc.) That said: I believe in God. I believe in the teachings of Christ. I believe that good is inherently more worthy than evil. I believe that love is the most powerful of things.

These are not statements of belief that can really be shed based simply upon one argument or piece of evidence. They are more subjective - more based on faith and belief than in a collection of "facts."

It would take a lot for me to change any of these beliefs, because they were worked out by me for myself - they weren't taught "to" me. At least, not in the form in which I believe in them now. I was certainly taught in Sunday school to believe in Jesus, but that teaching did not really determine my belief. It planted the idea there, I'd assume, but I generally think that the deep-seated beliefs that people hold must be discovered organically, by and for themselves.

Life can change beliefs, but it would take some time. I would have to be pummeled with a series of events that led me to believe (slowly and gradually) that good was, for example, really not any more worthy than evil. And even then, I'd have to be interpreting those events in that way for myself. Two people could go through a car accident where a third person died - one survivor could come through deciding to believe in God, the other could be a person who decided to become an atheist.

So in that way... it can be interesting. Perhaps at some basic level, belief is just a concious (or subconscious?) but in any way deliberate choice to believe. Maybe we're all following Nietzsche more than he thought - choosing to believe in certain things, full well knowing that they are arbitrary. I don't really know. But that's where I stand at this point. Lots of evolving yet to do, I expect - at least as far as ascertaining the particulars.

You know Ddavid, it's rather odd to discuss this kind of metaphysical religious stuff with you, because your perception, right from the off is that all of us are not enlightened enough to grasp what you are saying.

Your sponsoring thought, your start point from which you base all your discussion points is that we are not aware enough to fathom the truth.

There is a glaring flaw in your approach to debating this topic because of that. I wonder if you can see it.

You play by different rules of theory as well, like you are playing chess with us, only most of us are playing the classic rules, as a metaphor for debate...you know, and you are playing by other rules and expecting us to know them and play our game by them.

Not very fair eh? Your general attitude is one of dismissive amusement that we do not consider extra dimensions and pararell universes when we talk about fate and choice.

You have whats called a "formless ideology". Basically your ideology has no form, no structure or limits and therefor can be interpreted in so many bizarre ways no one could ever understand it unless you said so.

Thanks to all the people who answered my original question.

To everyone else who went waaay off topic, including myself, til the next time my darlings.

Keep that hocus pocus out of your focus.

In britain we don't have much of a history with dialectics as we are a country of science and reason and the dialectical approach is far too accepting of glaring contradictions and unproven subjective theory.

I don't want to dumb things down and certainly you are fully entitled to your opinion but I think it's overly complex and creates more questions than it answers...indeed I don't see many answers at all from dialectics, only statements of what things are and the natures inside them and around them.

This is nothing new and is being done far better by straight science, which we collectively call Positivism in britain.

It seem dialectics, at least in your hands is a naming tool for the subtle world....we humans do like to name things.

Wow, a triple post eh? And one of those annoying cut and paste reply jobs...I hate those, so immature!

I am critical of the theory, not you Ddavid. You are critical of me. When you are ready to accept me as I am without your stupid baseless ideas about how spiritually dense you mistakenly think I am, then maybe, just maybe we can have a discussion.

Until then I refuse to debate with a man who adamantly states that until I accept what he is saying I am in the wrong. It's a pathetic viewpoint to talk from and one more suited to highschool philosophy 101 classes.

BELIEVE OR DIE!!

thanks for all those options!

I wonder how I can use reason and logic to debate against a theory that is everything and nothing at the same time.

We are still and moving, dead and alive...this and that, yay and nay. It's a bottomless hole of a theory that can be wrapped around anyone whim, including yours. It feels like a very complex religious text with loopholes and corridors of logic that twist off into the mists.

Perhaps I have no read what you have written properly, or maybe you haven't explained it very well but it doesn't look like a valuable way to view the world. Useful I'm sure in philosophy classes, but perhaps you can explain what real world practical uses this theory has. I might learn then what it's form is if you catch my dirft.

And Ddavid, I am not angry at you, I defend myself strongly from what I percieve to be your false ideas and statements about me....I can do that with passion without being angry darling....

Argh. Believing in determinism...welp, you really have to give up your sense of guilt or remorse if you're a determinist. Believing that everything is pre-determined is in short: pessimistic.

The only real proof in God is perhaps that there is no proof disproving Him...similar to there being no proof which disproves Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Giant Spaghetti Monster (of Death and Destruction and all things Bad).

"Putting science and dialectic against each other is the sign of lacking proper knowledge about the role and the function of philosophy and its relation with science."

^Interesting that you wrote this. It seems to me that as soon as a philosophical theory becomes fact, then it is no longer philosophical, but scientific. Questions that cannot be answered or theories that cannot be proven--Ahh, philosophy...The root of science is philosophy. So perhaps in the essence that dialectics encompass philosophy, it is not too far a leap to also include science? Especially when so many choose to disregard the findings of science; facts. Which brings me to the question of, what is a fact? A fact is repeatable, generally accepted, and cannot be disproved...but these are characteristics of a fact, they are not a definition. Aren't dialectics aimed to find a common ground, sometimes even a SCIENCE formed by the combination of multiple theories? Ddavid, why are you casting science out from philosophy--and religion, which to many IS a philosophy; a system of beliefs. You are ranting about "the dialectic," but you don't seem to understand its basis very well. In classical philosophy, the dialectic method is the exchange of arguments and counter-arguments advocating propositions and counter-propositions, resulting in (hopefully) a synthesis of the opposing assertions. 'The aim of the dialectical method is to try to resolve the disagreement through rational discussion, and ultimately, the search for truth.' Do you know much about The Socratic Method? Are we talking about different dialectics or something?

Wow, I am off on such a tangent. I probably should read the posts in this thread before writing more. I've only skimmed!

Oi, I just read this:

"And science and philosophy have no competition my friend they both live side by side and support each other."

Oops. Before I read this I thought you were supposing that there is no connection between science and philosophy. My bad.

Ha, you could really tell I was inebriated? That's kind of sad. I had some wine, but I wasn't feeling toooo out of it. Anyway, cheers.

Uh....Ddavid, I am so pissed....I wrote out a huge response to you...and a nice one too, I actually explaine what I thought philosophy and all the rest were and then I gave you a wee history lesson on were positivism came from and the relation it has to mystical thought and also the religious background of my country...and do you know what happened?

I took so long with it that the website logged me out and when I hit post it vanished...and I, dafty that I am didn't copy it...when I hit back it wasn't there.

I won't do it again.

Suffice to say it was excellent.

This topic has been a hard one for me, Kavy boy. I've been trying to figure out why it is so, apart from the obvious fact that the idea of changing my beliefs seems so important because it would drastically change who I think I am, and my belief in my own self. I think I found it difficult because of the nature of my beliefs, which thrive in mystery as the truest emotion, and lie in the desire to know more, to journey as close to truth as possible, and from there ascertain goodness, and then beauty, and to translate this from the world, to the world.

So I must find this thread tricky because I believe my beliefs are being continually refined and are probably only provisional- eternally imperfect and incomplete as far as knowledge allows, but embodied by love- all part of the supreme and immutable laws of nature that reveal themselves to me at their most basic levels, that seem to render my thinking more fascinatingly meaningless the closer I get.

The point is, I believe an open mind is important and so I thought I should be able to find something that could change my beliefs, and it would certainly be stupidly hypocritical of me to suggest that nothing could change them. But I can't think of anything. Possibly because my beliefs are too broad or too specific. Possibly because if I am currently able to forsee something tangible that could completely change my beliefs, I probably wouldn't believe them. Possibly because I can't think of actively finding and controlling my beliefs- it is the other way round.

If I was addicted to drugs, at least I would know it was illogical and irrational and bad for me, and I would want to change it. My faith is not like that. However, in the past, some of my beliefs have changed due to scientific evidence (personally investigated), repeated environmental observations and experience, societal influences, and intellectual conversations, particularly with good-looking men. These changes were relatively sudden, instead of expectedly gradual, either because my ignorance was made painfully clear or I was feeling, or was made to feel, desperately vulnerable. Yet, I suppose continually losing and finding bits of yourself is what makes life lively. Who knows, I might become a Catholic nun next year. But I don't believe I will.

In my experience it's experience above all else that really inspires faith or lack of.

If someone is exposed to an experience for which they have no reference point, and then one is offered to them rather than be confused they usually take it, even if it might not make lots of sense.

Travelling is a well known great source of experience which can radically [depending on where you travel] alter your faith in things. You tend to find people with extreme or very unusual beliefs are either very unstable in their lives and so are grasping at systems of thought to explain their predicament, or they are constantly trying new things and being challenged by really interesting people who aren't afraid to step up and offer their insights, like Ddavid does.

It is weird eh Dave, how we each have our own truth...almost as if....we are all living in our own worlds...

Wow, a 5 post run of little ideas. You do know there is an edit button so you can save posts and space, it's very handy.

My historical knowledge is no knowledge of yours old bean. The Stalin link you made is crazy, about as crazy as Bobs R Kelly one....

I think I'll keep my thread ideas to the CLUB from now on. People there can disagree with me without making all kinds of wacky assertions about what I know and don't know and also who and what I support.

Tattie bye now campers....

True dat. We certainly disagree with each other in THE CLUB, but we've got this "agree to disagree" unspoken moral code thing we follow...which is more like guidelines...Arrr, me mateys.