Etiquette for children

There's a very good little book , called ""etiquette for children""
These days the way children and certainly teenagers behave is completely scandalous
This will only lead to a degeneration of society , after all, if someone hasn't been taught decency and good manners from early childhood on, then how will they ever grow up to be socialy aceptable persons, who show respect and receive respect from other people
Altough the book is very oldfashioned , some things should be taught to children by their parents and others :

-It must be remembered that in little ones the imitative faculties are developed to an almost abnormal extent,and that a child's character will receive lasting impressions from those with whom he comes into contact in early childhood ,let an effort be made ,therefore ,that he shall never learn anything but good from his surroundings.

-A too liberal allowance of pocket-money should never be made ,
There is nothing more conducive to extravagance in later years than an unlimited supply of pocket-money during childhood .

-grown up people should also be very careful in regard to their conversation before children
Many things heard from their elders are stored up in the small memories and are apt to come out upon the most akward occasions ,
Never indulge in scandal or gossip of any kind before a child , many parents err most flagrantly in this respect ,heedless of the fact that by doing so they are sowing the seeds of unkindness and ill-nature in the ears and minds of children .

-Boys and girls,from earliest infancy ,should be ladies and gentlemen, and parents should insist on boys showing deference to girls --in a crowd, men should protect women from danger, only a cowardly man pushes through a crowd at the risk of hurting woman and children.

-little girls (and boys, but that wasn't in the book ) should open the door for their superiors and their elders to show respect , to our superiors we should show not only politeness ,but great respect ,stand up when addressed by them and remain standing until told to sit down .

-Respect to our superiors is the founbdation of good manners , all through life they will have someone in authority over them to respect ,and if allowed to be disrespectful when children ,when they grow up they will be unbearable ,

-every effor should be made to banish self-consciousness,which is after all but a deceitful form of vanity ;
She who never thinks about herself at all will be sure to posses the charm of simplicity and nature in her manner ,affection and shyness are the two enemies of grace and must be overcome .

I dig it, except all the guff about "Superiors"...I mean was this book written in the 1900's back in Victorian England?

No one is my superior, and I think teaching children that we are all equal, but that being polite is a superior way of acting is better than teaching subservience from an early age.

Still nice book...wish my parents had read it.

1901, so of course, it sounds old fashioned
but, better to raise a child in an old fashioned way than letting them get out of control, as many children these days are,
respect is a word many simply do not know
and decency is something mainly teenagers don't know, just look at how -mostly girls - teenagers dress

But,maybe if more children where raised this way, there would be less immature adults or crackheads.
I'm not so naive that I would think that -if raised like that- all children would grow up to be perfect adults.
but I do believe that it would benefit the child a lot

Firstly the word "ettiquette" applies to certain westren norms and values. And does not apply to many of the multi-cultural lifestyles....

And seeing as it was made in the 1900's I highly doubt it considered other cultural values.

"Unfortunately I disagree. Not all children and young adults are like this at all. At 17 years of age I have to protest that much less than 25% of young people are disrespectful or horrible. As for the subservience, I think it will only come if young people feel they recieve due respect from their elders."

I happened to notice that you are from the UK, I'm from the UK and I must tell you - your figure of 25% is not just too low but ludicrously so. I'm 27 (not young, but not old enough to be classed as a a whinging old man) and it's a -majority- of younger people today have no respect. I don't mean this as no respect for elders etc... I mean no respect at all! I live in Manchester and the youth around here insult, offend, intimidate and abuse anything and anyone they think they can get away with.

They litter, deface, smash, break and vandalise anything they want .. including their own neighbourhoods. Even animals much lower down the evolutionary ladder know not to **** where they eat, this concept seems wasted on them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all kids/youths are bad ... far from it. Yet the majority of youths do not appreciate the world they are presented with.

I hear it all the time, youths using the words "dont diss me" "why you dissin' me" ... from what I see and hear you can't disrespect something that deserves no respect.

~Pete.

Here are the figures for ASBO's (Anti-Social Behaviour Order) breaches and there respective age groups.. Figures courtesy of Home Office, FOI (Freedom Of Information)

Age group
14-15 = 550
16-18 = 1,090
19-25 = 740
26-34 = 400
35+ = 590

These figures are slightly different but come courtesy of House Of Commons FOI

ASBO's Issued for 2005
Age Group
10-20 = 1,955
21+ = 1,016

I don't really think an explanation of these figures is needed. They speak for themselves.

I'm not tarring anyone with any brush, I'm simply stating both my opinion ... and now giving you the facts to back them up.

~Pete.

People either demand respect by the strength of their characters of the worth of their deeds, and usually it's their presence that makes you respect them, the way in which they present themselves and look you in the eye.

All that "you have to earn my respect" is a bit John Wayne, and to be honest, who'd want to waste their energy trying to gain someones approval. Better by far to hold yourself in high regard and let other people make up their own minds, which they are apt to do regardless.

I remember dating this girl, and her Father was an old school kinda guy. Wanted to know what my plans for the future were when I first met him, all that crap you know. [I didn't mention trying to make out with his daughter as much as possible being pretty high on the list].

He said to me he was very protective of his children, and anyone who wanted to be involved with his family had to earn his respect. He stood there so strong and proud when he said it, I could almost see his father or grandfather saying the same thing, either to him or someone else while he watched as a boy. I said to him, trying not to smile too much at the cowboy movie feel of the interaction

"How about I do nothing to lose your respect, will that do?"

He sort of half laughed half snorted.

"We'll see" is all he said....and by jove we did see..turns out he converted to a Jehovahs Witness, I lost respect for him and stopped dating the girl soon after.

"And seeing as it was made in the 1900's I highly doubt it considered other cultural values."

I don't think I need other cultural values other than the ones I know and stated in the first post , these are the values I do believe children need to be raised in.

"little girls (and boys, but that wasn't in the book ) should open the door for their superiors and their elders to show respect , to our superiors we should show not only politeness ,but great respect ,stand up when addressed by them and remain standing until told to sit down .

If you think this is good practice for children nowadays, you are living in the past. This may have been appropriate 40/50 years ago. No self respecting person would ask, let alone -expect- a child to open doors for them.
I mean come on, lets get a grip on reality here, they are kids and first and foremost they should be taught good manners, yes ... but subservience? I think not.

~Pete.

Pete, which part of manchester do you live in? the part i live in has very few of the things you mentioned in your first post. some, yes. but i was fortunate enough to be raised in a nice little area where everybody knew and helped each other and the kids i grew up with are {Mostly} sensible and still remain close to me today.

I don't think I need other cultural values other than the ones I know and stated in the first post , these are the values I do believe children need to be raised in."

I'm sorry but isn't that a little ignorant for someone to say that...when you state "children"....what do you mean...? Hmm...

As I stated before, your values...I'm sorry your ettiqutte class..is nothing more than a upper-class separatism...And that's taking a literalist view.

But let's look at it from another perspective. When a child, is given etiquette classes. It not only confuses the child, but it places him/her in a socially awkward position.

It's socially backward to actually seperate our children from the rest of society. Plus it creates a superiority/inferiority complex within them. Driving them to believe that by taking these etiquette classes, they somehow are above the rest.

On a different note...I think if you'd bring a topic such as etiquette, you'd research well on other culture etiquettes and manners, seeing as we live in a multi-cultural society.

Thanks : )

Jenni, I think it's fair to say that I'm obviously not from the part of Manchester you come from. I don't think all youths are bad, my godson is one of the sweetest young men I've ever met.
I did say, in the same post ...
"Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all kids/youths are bad ... far from it."

I do, however, think that as a rule youths seem to have a general lack of respect for everything around them.

Illum-
I do almost all of the things you described in your above post also. (apart form the wife thing, as I'm single) this doesn't come from being told to stand as a superior person enters the room when I was in my formative years, nor does it come from learning "my place" in society. I think it's usually referred to as ... Common Courtesy. I open doors for women, I also give up a seat for women/elderly and, god forbid, children! You don't need have it hammered into you at an early age that you should do this for your "superiors". It's just common decency.

~Pete.

"seeing as we live in a multi-cultural society"
i think things likle decency and respect are universal and beyond all cultures, these are values that are needed to have a good society in which all people live together in a respectful way ,

it has also nothing to do with being upper class,

^^
Common Courtesy. I open doors for women, I also give up a seat for women/elderly and, god forbid, children! You don't need have it hammered into you at an early age that you should do this for your "superiors". It's just common decency

maybe a lot of adults have that courtesy , but how many times do you see an I-pod listening chewing gum eating teenager on a bus stand up for let's say a pregnant woman ??
It has to be taught to children, no matter what culture.

I think what you don't understand is, while opening the doors and giving up your seats may be a nice thing to do. It shouldn't have to be a must...

But like all teenagers, one must remember that the word "superiors" does not respond well to them. And also it creates a mistrust between the adults and teenagers when we distinguish who is the superior and who is not!

Being chivalrous is very admirable, in fact many in britain practice it. However, we shouldn't revolve our lives on such menial things.

Never did I say I disagreed with the principles you have put forward. I don't think enough manners are taught in todays society. I took umbridge at the way you said they should be implemented and taught. Subservience should never be taught to anyone in any circumstances (in my view).
"It has to be taught to children, no matter what culture"

That statement I whole-heartedly agree with. When you apply it to common courtesy and general manners.

~Pete.

Illumanati: Why don't you read what I actually said, than trying to threaten me with penalty points. Bob locked the thread did he not?...Yet he did not warn or threaten me about my actions, by ruining another thread.

If you feel that way...pm me...You're a mod, you should have obviously known that!!

It's just funny that you of all people would ruin a thread by stating that I ruined a thread...Funny

Now seeing as you have nothing constructive to say about etiquette for children. We have nothing more to discuss...:)

Back to the topic: So I would like to ask the original poster: Do you think there is a distinction between etiquette and manners

Ugh....you know, I challenge the Mods when I feel they need to be challenged, as I do with anyone, regardless of their role or webiste status.

But Noir, you take the biscuit, you are like JPM and every other Devils advocate brewer of trouble. Almost every post you make is designed to either offend people or insult them, and they are peppered with just enough logic and politeness that you are not viewed as blatantly offensive, but to anyone who actually knows you and your history on this site, you are just horribly rude.

I don't get it, you are clearly a smart guy, versed on a basic level with various political, philosophical and psychological theories etc..but what do you use them for? To inspire argument, division and petty arguments which you so clearlu love....you just love winding people up...you have actually admitted that you sometimes only post to upset people and get them worked up.

If I were a Mod I'd have warned you a long time ago to use your brain for something more constructive or face penalty points for causing persistant division on this website......basically you'd be banned...and you can rant on about me abusing freedom of speech etc etc...but you have squandered yours on BS....persistantly and without remorse or intent....

You have no point, no goal...except, to my eyes at least...you upset, anger and jibe people into arguments....your every post is an invitation to petty debate.

feel free to tell me I'm a hypocrite......whenever I start debate...they have a point and a purpose that is well beyong anything you have ever created on this website...

I don't get it...What is this the reply to Noir day...Hasn't no one heard of a simple thing called P.M and not ruining a good discussion...

Jeez...

Kevin:

God, it is actually good that you aren't a mod, seeing as your logic has went out the window and is replaced by your ardent emotions.

You have such an idealised view of everything...Don't you! And you can't maintain the notion that someone who differs from you in every way would actually disagree at your various posts.

Well cry me a river...But if you actually done your research you would see that my posts are not as extreme as you claim they are...

If I disagree with someone, I state it...I don't pussyfoot around and dance around with words. I just feel sad that my words have that much effect on these people...But frankly my words like many others is just opinions...Nothing more...Nothing less.

You can say that I am not a good influence on this site...You can even say that I didn't bring anything to this site.

But let's just remember that while you assume my personality, you fail to see the many opinions that actually helped people.

But again, you don't care. All you care about is your petty pride by replying back after the thread was locked...

How Sad....Lol.

"Ugh....you know, I challenge the Mods when I feel they need to be challenged, as I do with anyone, regardless of their role or webiste status."

I'm sorry but I got to laugh at this statement...So you claim that I am a bad influence, yet you do the same thing as you say I do!!

Again hypocritical...But ofcourse you knew that...:)

Manners are a good thing that should be taught within the home. How it should be handled all depends on the child and one must recognize you can provide all of the lessons you wish, but once a child reaches a certain age they start making their own decisions and they are not always going to follow what they were taught. Kids can have the best manners when they are at home and be little monsters when they are not with their parents, the opposite is also true.

I don't agree with the pocket change issue totally. I was not given much in ways of money when I was a kid, which led to liberal spending once I had my own money lol I give my daughter money when she asks for it and she spends it wisely, sadly more wisely than her mother lol

I have a potty mouth, my daughter doesn't swear. I will fight in front of her for things I believe in and I am okay with her seeing that because I want her to be able to stand up one day as well. Now dumb, petty fights that is a different story.

I think it is really parents that need lessons.

Out of curiousity,how much money do teenagers get from their parents?

probably more than I did, but that's I guess normal, the world did grow more expensive, and of course you can't deny a child everything

Hmmm....I think it depends on the teenager, the parent and what is availble to be given. Mine is not a teen yet.

But isn't it every parent's dream to provide for their child on their every whim, when they do strike gold.

Reality and getting what you want from your parents are two different things...Duh!

But I think that preparing for the real world does not apply for the incredibly rich...I mean have you seen the socialites on today's magazines...

Yes the real world really did a number on them...Pfft!

Yeah watching My Super Sweet 16 amazes me, if my father had that kind of money and I ever behaved the way these kids do, I'd get nothing. We were not rich, but we were well off and respect still mattered.

I wish my brother and sister had some etiquette...i am with them 2 days a month, and i am embarrased to be seen with them.

i have a book i think that was similar to this...and i should read it to them..my bro is going to be a freshman in high school next year, and my sister in 7th grade. and they still act like 5 year olds. pass gas and burp and talk about inappropriate things in public. disrespect my mom and her boyfriend, as well as me, left and right...its tiring. its funny that i saw this topic, because just yesterday i was complaining about their etiquette...

im also glad for this post because now i feel better because i vented =]

the only one i disagree with is the standing until told you can sit down..that seems a bit much. but talking with respect is important..yeah... =]

i think opening the doors for elders is extremely important. its not like it'll kill you to hold a door open for a little old lady/man that can hardly walk. or even for a person just a few years older then you. its just the polite thing to do.
and as for how much money i got..when i was younger i got about $20 a month..then once my grandpa died i only got money on my bday and christmas, but now i have a job so its a lot easier...well i have a job until saturday =[ anyway, yeah. i'm grareful i didnt get everything i wanted, because watched super sweet 16 makes me sick.

if i was having a party costing thousands i would never talk to my family the way those kids do. yeah

ok im done now..lol

I agree, your right

Of course this subject is an important one to me since I work with troubled teens everyday,gang members ,drug dealers,etc. and are they direspectful? yes ,but does anyone ever stop to wonder how they got that way? crackhead or dysfuntional parents are not very concerned about the values their kids are learning ,and yet I can't tell you how many of these same kids would do anything they could for me . Even today for example,I was sick and the kids could tell,they were so kind wanting to know if I was ok.I find that the old saying holds true"kids learn what they live"its not whats told to them that matters but what they see practised. Like "don't talk about people in front of the kids" why didn't he just say don't talk about people period.I think these kids have learned disrespect from people disrespecting them.

"A too liberal allowance of pocket-money should never be made ,
There is nothing more conducive to extravagance in later years than an unlimited supply of pocket-money during childhood"

I definelty agree with the money one
I had a small allowance as a kid and have learnt that i have to work hard for my money and understand how important it is to know the value of your money

while some people I know get it handed to them on a platter and think they will never have to work for what they get even though they should

xx