A rated R [18] family site.

It just occured to me, that this website it always put forward as a family site, but it has an easy to access explicit section that I wouldn't want my children reading.

It's kinda like calling a video shop a "family store" and having a porn section at the back.

I say this only because when issues pertaining to freedom of speech etc come up, and they do quite regularly, one of the arguments against people being able to use whatever language suits them is that this is a family site and we must protect the children.

If that really is the case, then the explicit section needs to be removed, and all swear words should be banned from the poems, or given age certificated like films.

I guess the wacky thing for me is that some people, when discussing adult issues remind everyone that this is a family site and certain behaviours will not be tolerated because of that fact.

Yet, there is an easily accessible explicit section, and even without the explicit section so many topics contain hard core adult ideas and theories that I know if I was a parent I'd be cautious about my child, and by child I mean someone who is say, under 10, or maybe even up to 12, reading them.

I'm not being critical of the inclusion of these things on this website, far from it, I just think it's high time we all stopped calling this a "family" website.

It's an adult/young adult website for serious dicscussion and open poetry and as such, should be administrated and moderated with that in mind.

I couldn't find anything that said this was a family site...nothing in the layout or rules or faq.

I don't want you to clean up anything about the explicit section. I'd rather not have one to be honest, but, given that young people do use this site and some of them, and their parents might not want to be exposed to potentially upsetting material, then I'm in favour of have that small safeguard, I guess.

However, that does not mean that the rest of the website, including the forums should have those family orientated ideals, and lets be honest, restrictions placed upon it.

I've seen people being asked to "tone it down, this is a family site" in adult debates about interesting serious ideas, and it doesn't sit very well with me.

This is not my being critical of you Mods, I'm guessing Janis must have secretly told you all to push the family values ideas...cause for the life of me I don't know where it's come from.

There is a such thing as netnanny. If parents are that into sheltering their children from "such harmful poetry" then there is a way to block that part only. As someone said above, the chances of someone coming across vulgar poetry and the chances of them coming across anything of that sort by searching google, is one in the same.

The moderators do their best from what I've seen (and it use to be far worse, with no complaints), and they are only human with lives of their own.

If you believe there is a problem with that poetry section block it on your own internet black list as I'm sure many parents/adolescents do already.

I'm not a concerned parent.

I'm not attacking the Mods, or anyone.

I don't think this is a family website, nor should it be, but it is put forward as such despite the fact it clearly isn't, just be the content of the forums and the nature of poetry.

Being respectful has nothing to do with family, or kids or age, it's just plain good manners. Mixing that up with protecting children from bad words is not good tennis.

Come on in...the water is lovely.

Im merely saying that the site is still, in my honest opinion, considered family safe. The site is nice enough to warn people when they enter the explicit section of the site, that some of the stuff in there is not exactly, "appropriate".

The contest in the contest forum 99% of the time do not allow explicit poems, and the mods do their best to keep the site "family-safe" yes there are a few problems here and there, but there are family-safe problems with every family safe site/show/etc.

You cant possible make it perfect in the eyes of everyone.

Yo Romeo,

I ain't getting at the Mods, all I'm saying is that this is not a family orientated website, by it's very nature it can't be.

Just look at the forums! We have threads that contain instructions on how to kill someone, threads about sex and drugs and religion and sexual abuse and self harm, and these are not considered offensive by the Mods or anyone else, and that is well and good. Do you know why?

Because these are ADULT topics and this is an adult site which has lots of young adults on it who are writing and discussing adult ideas with as much maturity in many cases as people much older than them.

Once more I'm not getting at the Mods, the relative peace of the last few months is testament to their hard work.

All I'm saying is that this website should not be thought of as a family one, with rules and practices to support that...because, it's not.

Just look at the forums! We have threads that contain instructions on how to kill someone, threads about sex and drugs and religion and sexual abuse and self harm, and these are not considered offensive by the Mods or anyone else, and that is well and good. Do you know why?

^^

I beg to differ with you, Kev. We do not allow threads that have instructions on how to harm yourself or to kill another.

If you see something like that then report it so that we may remove the said threads promptly.

For the most part, yes, this is a family oriented site. We do the best we can without infringing upon the rights of others.

We must assume that children are on this site as well, so therfor, we must make rules that will protect them to the best of our abilities.

~~Sher

So you think this is a family site? You all really think that?

I see absolutely no evidence of this being a family site at all. A simple tour of the forums confirms this is an adult site.

But hey, rock and roll, this isn't an argument and I'm not being critical, just stating a point, an obvious one that perhaps needs to be cleared up.

I think that this site, above all else is NOT a family site.

I mean when you think about it, most of the poems and subjects we talk about on many occassions are not family oriented.

However, I do see your point that when stating that this can "become" a family site.

But let me just stress, that as poets, we need freedom of expression, and making this into a family site, would stifle that...in that many of the subjects that are considered taboo, yet acceptable in poetic standards would be disallowed in this site. To which I think is unfair...

I don't think this is, nor should it be, a family orientated site. Something doesn't have to be "Explicit" for it to be not suitable for kids. I've written many "Sad / Dark" poems that I would never read to a minor. Are these types of poems now to be placed in the explicit section so that a child/minor has to click an extra button to access them .. ?

This obviously has to maintain a certain amount of credibility and that is what the mods do. Areas of this site are open to everyone and every age group. You can't have people saying things in open topics that are blatantly unsuitable for minors. The mods do a good job of keeping the house very clean; no one is denying that.

As much as it pains me to say it (no offence Kev) but I agree completely with Kevin on this one. In my eyes, the mere fact that people come here to express and share the deepest darkest corners of their soul and imagination states that it cannot be for minors.

Peace.

~Pete.

[Edit]
Illum - If I'm understanding Kevin rightly on this I don't think he is particularly interested in making a change to the way the site is run/modded; he is trying to make a change to the way it is thought of.
I may be mis-interpreting him though.
I was typing while you posted so decided to add a little p.s'y thing on the end. (- ~ ,)

Made reference to a deleted post - now just makes me look stupid ... (As if I don't do that enough already!)

I wouldn't go that far Bob. I don't want free reign, if by that you mean no Moderators or rules of any kind in the forums then no of course not.

I simply do not think family values or protecting young minds should have anything to do with how the debates are monitored, sexual predators etc aside of course.

I guess to pick up on Illuminatix's very fair summary, I'm not trying to change anything, except as he said how the website is thought of. Thing is, the way the Mods think of the website can sometimes effect how they Mod the website....so I guess I might be trying to change something here....

Darn, I just can't help myself.

@ )

Im not saying that the site isn't a bit much to the younger, "innocent" minds. But alot of these boards now are used for help. Alot of people now are struggling and these boards help them through such stuggle. Maybe we aren't doing our part as members to post next to our topic [Explicit Content]

But how long would that honestly last and be reinforced? A family site with a few problems is still a family site. At the age that most the members on here are, they should be able to understand all these topics, and if they're younger, then it is up to the parents to monitor it.

Yes there are some topics, some poems, quotes, messages, names, etc that are innappropriate, but I still believe that the still benefits a variety of ages and can still be considered a family site with what little bugs it has.

I totally agree with Romeo that is all I am saying

This thread is not moot Bob, and here is why.

There is no rule or guideline that I am aware of, from Janis that says this website should be Moderated or contributed to by members with children in mind.

It just doesn't exist. Lets be honest here, the idea of having family values etc etc comes from our opinions and the general ideals of the Moderator team, and not from Janis himself or any of his divine rules.

So, really, when you look at it, and then this thread, you can see that what we are discussing is the totally independant attitudes of the website users and you Moderators towards our shared mentality and communal guidelines, which have nothing to do with Janis.

You guys implement the family values morals without any official rules behind the idea.

Or maybe I am missing some rules....

If I am not, then that means we are all free to change those ideals and this won't conflict with anything Janis has written in tablet.

Ya dig?

I guess maybe I did mis-interpret what Kevin was saying ...

Be honest with yourself in a response to this please Kevin.
Lets speak hypothetically for just a moment and you are now the God of P&Q, your decision is final. Would you change the way that this site is maintained (only in reference to what we are discussing here)?
I don't think you would allow deliberately hurtful behaviour in forums, swearing/cursing at other members, references to the best way to make bombs, advice on how to kill youself/others.

So are you actually looking to change something real about the website or (as I initially thought) trying to get people to drop the completely irrational thought that this site is/was/should be a family oriented site.

Either way it is (kind of) a moot subject as the first isn't going to happen because God isn't here, and the second only changes peoples perceptions of the site.

I think I might just be doing a bit of Devils Advocate here though. I also think I confused myself somewhere.

~Pete.

Ace post Pete, really ace.

I am not looking to change anything about the rules or structure of the website with this thread, because as you so rightly say, change takes divine intervention and I'm not a believer in that...and I don't pray for it.

However, the Moderators stick very strictly to the established rules Janis has set up, and in the areas of respect and common decency, this is great.

What isn't so great however in my opinion is the totally unsupported [officially] idea that this is a family site which should be run in such a way as to be "child friendly" in terms of content and conduct.

I say again, the forums are not child friendly, and this is not a failing of the Mods to maintain decency, it's because the website is not, in reality family based despite the persistant claims of certain people to the contrary.

Interpreting the rules that are linked to general respect as being also supportive of a child and family friendly ethos for this website is a mistake.

Poets have a habit of discussing the alternative, the unknown, the taboo and sometimes the just plain offensive tricky subjects that are no suitable for young people, without being rude or penalty worthy in of themselves.

I guess the Moderator driven family ideal of this website doesn't match up to the reality of it that I see.

I think there should be some recognition of that fact and a small shift in perspective and ideology in how that is implemented.

ha, that sounded amazingly business like...!!!

And I might add very professional, even by your extraordinarly high standards.

I agree with 99.1% of what you have said in the above. I think addressing issues that are tabboo and out of the box is part and parcel of being a poet.

The only part I don't agree with you on is ...
"Interpreting the rules that are linked to general respect as being also supportive of a child and family friendly ethos for this website is a mistake."
I don't think it's a mistake to -attempt- it, but common sense tells me that with so many openly opinionated people crammed like sardines into one place .. it will never become a reality.

This, Kev, sums it up perfectly for me - you hit the nail right on the heed.

"I guess the Moderator driven family ideal of this website doesn't match up to the reality of it that I see.
I think there should be some recognition of that fact and a small shift in perspective and ideology in how that is implemented."

~Pete.

I'm not sure I can be any more concrete that I have been Illum, if I did that Bob would accuse me of trying to dictate the way this website works, as opposed to just discussing it openly.

Pete seems to have grasped what I'm getting at rather easily.

I always thought the "family site" statement was just a general way of saying "now now, you are not following rules 6 and 7 and blah blah", so I didn't really care to notice the distinction. I mean, both statements can be held in question if you really want to look hard enough. But I agree that this site cannot legitimately be a typical family site if it claims to have any poetic merit, and there is a difference between restrictive child-friendly content and common decency.

I suppose there is a bit of confusion with the explicit section being present. If it was removed altogether, and poetry was allowed to be submitted in the proper categories, then the discussion forum would not seem to conflict with the sentiments of the site. But this is unlikely to happen, perhaps with good cause.

And the other hand, we could have an explicit section in the discussion forum with a warning beforehand (a gesture which will be as equally pointless as the one in the poetry section).

And on the elbow, we could just continue as before, being respectful and fair, and simply stop calling this place a family site. Instead, reference the actual rules made by members and moderators (which are still being modified in the editing room...? I think that process is more important here. Although, I have seen no major fuss with the rules lately, which is great. But tarnation, we worked hard on that, what's happening?)